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Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:34 am
by horape
I have been using CodeIgniter for about a year now, but I feel that I have spent too much time building things that should be native. My own version of it is pretty cool and has almost everything I have ever used to build a web, in a way that it is reusable, but still lacks power and every time I learn something new (like TDD, or ORM), I realize that my framweork doesn't have it, and have to hack it to integrate with other php components (like simpletest) or even write them myself (a view library for theming/templating, an auth system, DB routing, Backend generation, Javascript abstraction, CSRF protection, etc etc, not to mention all the third party code I added to it thanks to the great CI community), and that sux and I guess it will never end.

Tonight I gave Symfony and Zend another chance* and got amazed with all the native stuff they have. So now I have to take the hard decision of moving from CI to one of those 2. I'm not even sure which one I should pick, so if you have some advice about them (or even about CI), I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance! :wink:

*the previous ones failed because I didn't know much about MVC or anything else, which you need just to pass the introductory tutorial

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:44 am
by yacahuma
I hate frameworks. It seems all they do is to add a level of complexity. Now you dont only need to know php but you also need to learn someone else solution to a problem. I think I am in the minority on this one, but so far I just never need them. The other problems is that new frameworks keep popping up like weeds. Why do you think that is? ...

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:22 pm
by jraede
Honestly, after trying several different frameworks I ended up sacking up and creating my own. It took a while, but now I can use it for everything and I know exactly what to do to modify it in order to adapt to different needs. You're going to get the problems you describe with every framework, mostly because it's not your creation, so it's not as intuitive as your own creation would be.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:03 am
by horape
yacahuma wrote:I hate frameworks. It seems all they do is to add a level of complexity. Now you dont only need to know php but you also need to learn someone else solution to a problem. I think I am in the minority on this one, but so far I just never need them.
Learning new techniques is also adding complexity, I don't see how that's bad.
Learning 'someone else solution' may cost you some hours, but doing it yourself may cost you days/months (if you ever reach a solution), and in the end it will never be as robust and error proof as something developed by a whole team of experts.
Also, if we talk about team development, then what would happen if everyone in your team had to learn each others solution instead of sticking to a standard framework?
The other problems is that new frameworks keep popping up like weeds. Why do you think that is? ...
How is that a problem?
I don't know why is that, but it doesn't seem crazy to me. I could release my own CI based framework (like kohana), and that wouldn't mean anything, other than CI wasn't enough.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:13 pm
by yacahuma
Well,

I started programming PHP before the word framework was used. So I developed my own libraries. The word "expert" is overused these days. Everyone makes mistakes. When you need to release a project and there is a problem in the framework, who are you going to ask for help?

Listen, I never said "dont use them" , All I said is I dont. I cant trust the guys that develop the framework, as mush as I trust what I do.

I do use external libraries. The problem with frameworks is that you have to do things their way. And they usually force you into specific patterns. When I use a library is just that. The rest is all my style and my way.

Why frameworks keep popping up like weed? Because you will always fine someone that is not happy with the framework, they find something wrong, or something in particular is hard to do, and they feel they can do better.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:28 pm
by Weirdan
yacahuma wrote:I started programming PHP before the word framework was used.
Can't be true. Software frameworks were known (and called frameworks) long before the first PHP version seen the light of day.
yacahuma wrote:The rest is all my style and my way.
For larger teams this is one of the problems frameworks aim to solve.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:42 pm
by Eran
My personal recommendation is the Zend Framework - I've been working with it for years, and it keeps improving and has great support from a major player (Zend). Granted, it might be a bit harder to get into than other frameworks, but it gives much more control and options to a dedicated developer. It is mainly a component library and not a baked in full-stack like most of the other frameworks, so you can use just some of the components in smaller projects that don't need the entire stack.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:25 pm
by AbraCadaver
I prefer CakePHP, but I personally would pick Zend over Symfony, even though I still consider Zend just a class library, like a much more professional PEAR.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:32 pm
by Eran
even though I still consider Zend just a class library
Not sure why you would say that, it has a complete stack as well as components. It's just not as locked in (baked?) as CakePHP and similar frameworks, which in my opinion is its strength

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:13 pm
by yacahuma
Weirdan wrote:
yacahuma wrote:I started programming PHP before the word framework was used.
Can't be true. Software frameworks were known (and called frameworks) long before the first PHP version seen the light of day.
yacahuma wrote:The rest is all my style and my way.
For larger teams this is one of the problems frameworks aim to solve.
I meant used in PHP not in the sense of programming languages. Frameworks in general are fairly recent (zend 2005). I was using PHP3 in 1998. All I am saying is now the use of frameworks is more common. Maybe, someone starting now feels that they have to use one. For me it's an annoyance.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:29 pm
by AbraCadaver
pytrin wrote:
even though I still consider Zend just a class library
Not sure why you would say that, it has a complete stack as well as components. It's just not as locked in (baked?) as CakePHP and similar frameworks, which in my opinion is its strength
That's exactly why I would say that :D It is a full stack, but is just a collection of classes that you glue together to create your application, whereas Cake glues this stuff together into a MVC framework from which to build MVC applications. It's a strength in your opinion because you probably prefer to develop that way, using professional classes and gluing them together yourself into an MVC application or some other way. I prefer my framework to do the heavy lifting, even if I need to follow some conventions, and I concentrate on the business logic and display.

I've been doing PHP for quite a while, as I'm sure you have, and other than posting in forums and mailing lists, I prefer not to produce much code 8) I definitely don't like including classes and/or instantiating objects, bootstrapping, routing, etc. the same way every time I write an application just to get the core functionality of MVC and ORM. I'm sure that many that use Zend have built their own skeleton application that they use each time and I probably would use Zend if I took the time to do that as well.

So in short, to each his own. My point was that, as good, flexible and plentiful as they are, the classes in Zend are just that, a library of classes. This appeals to many as a framework, just not me.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:59 pm
by Eran
Still not sure what you're getting at. If it's a full-stack, it's not just a collection of classes - it's a framework. It has a somewhat coupled core (the MVC structure) and much more decoupled components. Also, bootstrapping / autoloading is something you do once, and is usually transferable between projects. As I said, the initial configuration is more involved, but after that you're up and running in a similar way to any other framework.

It sounds to me from what you're writing that you haven't used Zend extensively. It does a lot of heavy lifting, for sure, just in a different way than Cake and other RoR inspired frameworks. No one who develops for a living wants to write more code than he has to - after all, time is money - and using Zend is very much a boost to the development effort (otherwise, who would use it?)

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:57 pm
by AbraCadaver
pytrin wrote:Still not sure what you're getting at. If it's a full-stack, it's not just a collection of classes - it's a framework. It has a somewhat coupled core (the MVC structure) and much more decoupled components. Also, bootstrapping / autoloading is something you do once, and is usually transferable between projects. As I said, the initial configuration is more involved, but after that you're up and running in a similar way to any other framework.

It sounds to me from what you're writing that you haven't used Zend extensively. It does a lot of heavy lifting, for sure, just in a different way than Cake and other RoR inspired frameworks. No one who develops for a living wants to write more code than he has to - after all, time is money - and using Zend is very much a boost to the development effort (otherwise, who would use it?)
What I'm getting at is not a framework war, hence my summary sentence. The only two frameworks I would consider right now are Cake and Zend. They are very different and each has their own benefits. It just so happens that even though there are things in Zend that aren't in Cake, Cake to me is more RAD. Since they are the PHP company, I'll probably move to Zend at some point, but for now I get things done quicker with Cake is my point. Obviously its different for each person.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:10 am
by Eran
I'm not trying to start a "war" or anything like that, just wanted to correct your somewhat incorrect statement regrading the ZF. I didn't say that it's necessarily better, only that it is my preference.

Re: Looking for another Framework.. Any suggestions?

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:44 am
by yacahuma
You know what else is cool about frameworks? When is time to get a new job and you are a PHP "expert" and a zend" expert but they need a cake "expert". Oopss!!! Now PHP knowledge is second to the framework knowledge itself.