Page 2 of 2

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:42 am
by Christopher
Finally a negative vote! After all the flame wars I figured there would be more ...

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:07 pm
by alex.barylski
Getting excited about a negative vote? :lol:

Finally the underdog wins one... 8)

Honestly...I think procedural is going the way of the dinosuar :)

Yes it's still serves a purpose, but like assembly isn't even considered for projects (except for kernel level code - even then only sometimes) procedural will get there one day too :)

As languages and technologies further abstract themselves from the physical machine the more human friendly (not nessecarily object oriented) everything will become...

I love thinking about the possibilities :)

Like that Hibernate you (and a few others)showed me...pure genius...likely not perfect...still can't determine where it's weaknesses are (admittedly I haven't spent much time reading about it) but still...light years ahead of doing things manually. :)

I am continually amazed by the evolution of software and it's systems and technologies...

I should have stayed in school and continued onto becoming a professor of computer science or some other field where I can "play" aka do research...as I much prefer that than actually coding of projects, etc... :(

Ah well, maybe one day :)

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:41 pm
by Christopher
Hockey wrote:Honestly...I think procedural is going the way of the dinosuar :)
I think that Procedural Design is going the way of the dinosaur. But once you switch over to OO Design then everything doesn't need to be a class -- if that makes sense. There is an interesting trend toward Helper Functions in OO (aided by some namespacing) because not everything needs all the features of a class.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:49 pm
by Buddha443556
Booo...go back to your old school languages which were used to develop software on machines with vacume tubes and computer bugs looked like this:
Hey! I'm not that old! :lol:
Honestly...I think procedural is going the way of the dinosuar
At the fringes of software development, in the ultra large scale projects, they're already looking beyond OOP because they have found it's limits in the millions of lines of code. Just as they found the limits of procedural in the hundreds thousands lines of code. So, OOP is already a dinosuar too. What's going to get us to pass a trillion lines of code? That's where the future is ... that's the problem we should be applying our collective intellect. Just the humble opinion of an old man. :wink:

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:01 pm
by timvw
<off-topic>
Hockey wrote: Like that Hibernate you (and a few others)showed me...pure genius...likely not perfect...still can't determine where it's weaknesses are (admittedly I haven't spent much time reading about it) but still...light years ahead of doing things manually
The disadvantage is that there are times that it seems to take light years to get some work done with hibernate.. Whereas as simply writing the queries yourself would have been a hour of work or so ;)

And their Validator package seems to apply a trinary logic.. Eg: if you add a @Size(min=1, max=3) constraint the value NULL is still accepted. Apparently they consider it as wanted behaviour so you're forced to use most of the constraints in combination with @NotNull.

Btw, i discovered the codeproject last month (saw a post on a blog that referred to it) and since then i've found quite some links to articles on c#/.net too... Apart from the fact that it requires me to sign up before i can download the sample code i can say that i like it.

</off-topic>

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:01 pm
by Christopher
Buddha443556 wrote:What's going to get us to pass a trillion lines of code? That's where the future is ... that's the problem we should be applying our collective intellect. Just the humble opinion of an old man. :wink:
Pass me over whatever the Buddha is smoking ... a trillion line program?

Last time I checked, all of Debian was about 50 million SLOC -- Windows is maybe half that. The Linux kernel is something like 4 million SLOC and it's not even really one program. As I recall, the onboard software for the Space Shuttle was around half a million SLOC and the IIS is pushing 2 million SLOC. But all of these systems are really many programs communicating in various ways. So we are a long ways from even a billion.

I'm not saying that we may not be heading for a a trillion line program someday (remember Bill Gates and 640k), but my guess is that something other than a bunch of humans will be in control of that codebase.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 pm
by Buddha443556
arborint wrote:Pass me over whatever the Buddha is smoking ... a trillion line program?
DOD is already over 10 billion SLOC ... at least publicly ... it probably much higher than that.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:18 pm
by Christopher
Buddha443556 wrote:DOD is already over 10 billion SLOC ... at least publicly ... it probably much higher than that.
But that's in thousands (10s of or 100s of thousands probably) of programs.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:42 pm
by Buddha443556
arborint wrote:
Buddha443556 wrote:DOD is already over 10 billion SLOC ... at least publicly ... it probably much higher than that.
But that's in thousands (10s of or 100s of thousands probably) of programs.
... and this differs from your average enterprise how? It's global. It's distributed. It's under constant development and maintenance.

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:55 pm
by alex.barylski
arborint wrote:
Hockey wrote:Honestly...I think procedural is going the way of the dinosuar :)
I think that Procedural Design is going the way of the dinosaur. But once you switch over to OO Design then everything doesn't need to be a class -- if that makes sense. There is an interesting trend toward Helper Functions in OO (aided by some namespacing) because not everything needs all the features of a class.
I agree 100% but that's only because OOP clearly isn't the ultimate solution for solving every problem - I use procedural when experience tells me I should and likewise with OOP.

What I mean though, was that in some time, another paradigm will arise and likely integrate OOP and NOT procedural...

Not sure what that paradigm is, but sure as s**t someone is thinking of some way to further abstract ourselves from machine architecture...

Cheers :)

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:58 pm
by alex.barylski
Buddha443556 wrote:
Booo...go back to your old school languages which were used to develop software on machines with vacume tubes and computer bugs looked like this:
Hey! I'm not that old! :lol:
Honestly...I think procedural is going the way of the dinosuar
At the fringes of software development, in the ultra large scale projects, they're already looking beyond OOP because they have found it's limits in the millions of lines of code. Just as they found the limits of procedural in the hundreds thousands lines of code. So, OOP is already a dinosuar too. What's going to get us to pass a trillion lines of code? That's where the future is ... that's the problem we should be applying our collective intellect. Just the humble opinion of an old man. :wink:
I figured :P

Thats exactly the message I was trying to convey... :)

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:03 pm
by alex.barylski
timvw wrote:<off-topic>
Hockey wrote: Like that Hibernate you (and a few others)showed me...pure genius...likely not perfect...still can't determine where it's weaknesses are (admittedly I haven't spent much time reading about it) but still...light years ahead of doing things manually
The disadvantage is that there are times that it seems to take light years to get some work done with hibernate.. Whereas as simply writing the queries yourself would have been a hour of work or so ;)

And their Validator package seems to apply a trinary logic.. Eg: if you add a @Size(min=1, max=3) constraint the value NULL is still accepted. Apparently they consider it as wanted behaviour so you're forced to use most of the constraints in combination with @NotNull.

Btw, i discovered the codeproject last month (saw a post on a blog that referred to it) and since then i've found quite some links to articles on c#/.net too... Apart from the fact that it requires me to sign up before i can download the sample code i can say that i like it.

</off-topic>
Cool dude...I love the codeproject :)

It was neat when the community was small like this...as it's growth has stiffled some interesting conversation - because there are so many newbie questions cluttering the place. I still visit daily. Although It's been a while since I've done VC++ development....it's the ultimate resource for anything VC++ related...

There is tons of ego, but at the same time amazing talented people...

I tell ya, check out Mike Dunn's articles or Jim Crafton...those guys are my heros...Mike's articles have allowed me to write some wicked cool Windows shell extensions...and Jim...that guy has been around and still very active in everything design, development, etc...it shows in his wisdom and articles...

True genius :)

Cheers :)

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:12 pm
by alex.barylski
arborint wrote:
Buddha443556 wrote:What's going to get us to pass a trillion lines of code? That's where the future is ... that's the problem we should be applying our collective intellect. Just the humble opinion of an old man. :wink:
Pass me over whatever the Buddha is smoking ... a trillion line program?

Last time I checked, all of Debian was about 50 million SLOC -- Windows is maybe half that. The Linux kernel is something like 4 million SLOC and it's not even really one program. As I recall, the onboard software for the Space Shuttle was around half a million SLOC and the IIS is pushing 2 million SLOC. But all of these systems are really many programs communicating in various ways. So we are a long ways from even a billion.

I'm not saying that we may not be heading for a a trillion line program someday (remember Bill Gates and 640k), but my guess is that something other than a bunch of humans will be in control of that codebase.
Pass me over whatever the Buddha is smoking
:lol:
Windows is maybe half that
I remember reading an old PCWorld or similiar PC mag back when Win2000 came out and the SLOC was like 64 million...so I imagine Vista will have even more...

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:18 pm
by feyd
I think we need to get back on topic. Although I know the size competition can be fun at times, it's shouldn't be apart of this thread.