Page 1 of 1
Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:32 pm
by gamerzedge
First off, sorry to post in this section but I didn't see a beginner section and I can't post in the General

.
My question is rather simple, I am not asking for tutorials from beginning to end or anything like that. I am simply asking the experts here where one should start the process of learning to build a dynamic website using Apache, PHP, and MySQL.
I am familiar with each but in no depth and lack the knowledge to TIE them all together. So I want to start from the beginning again and go from right to left and learn it all thoroughly. Should I start with PHP, then move to MySQL, and then to Apache and so forth or what are your opinions?
My initial thought was to learn PHP and move into the Database then actually customizing the web server and OS that you would be using to host. So correct me please if I am wrong. If I am right then I just need clarification because I am one of those people that try to learn everything at once and overwhelm themselves so I just need to know where to begin my focus.
** As a bonus question, if anyone has a recommended book or source on website design, I would be very grateful as well. I find learning to program or at least the resources to learn such things are easy to come by, but learning how to arrange the background, header, and footer and so forth more difficult to learn due to the lack of resources around or good ones at least that cover that topic thoroughly. **
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:32 pm
by jaoudestudios
Do you know the front end stuff too? i.e. html and css? (javascript)?
I would do it in this order...
1. html -> w3c strict standards
2. css
3. php 5
4. mysql
5. apache (LAMP)
6. javascript
7. have a holiday!
8. linux (Fedora)
9. ajax (javascript & php)
10. Flex 3
11. Actionscript 3
12. Mysql Stored procedures
13. Bash scripting
14. I wont list anymore...
Anyone agree? or disagree? The last few are a bit flaky.
W3C schools is a great place to learn
http://www.w3schools.com/ and my website of course

, no tutorials but examples of code and a few classes that you can plug and play.
Good luck! and let us know how you get on.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:51 am
by gamerzedge
Thanks for the response!
HTML is no problem, that is pretty simple stuff and I know CSS fairly well. I started not to long ago, but I like to think I pick things up pretty fast and I am fairly intuitive with things like this. The one area in CSS that I need a more thorough explanation of and this was kind of my bonus question

, is how to use the "div" element wisely to achieve a well laid out website. When using PHP, is the div element still used to organize your layout?
Other than my one question, I think that the way you have everything is in a positive progression. PHP is obviously more useful to begin with than the database to begin with. Thanks for your input and I will checkout your website for additional lessons/information.
If you were to give someone any tips or suggestions while learning web developing what would you tell them? What do you think deserves more attention or less attention?
For example, I would like to learn how to customize an Apache installation for my website, but perhaps you would know from experience that it may not be as important as another area if I had to choose to focus on something.
Thanks again for your suggestions.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:36 am
by jaoudestudios
Its good that you already know html and css, are you able to write to w3c standards? preferably strict!? as this is important too.
Even when using php html is still used to layout the page, so yes div's are used in php.
Html is always used to layout the page and hold content, css is used to style this information and php is used to dynamically control the page with data and fetch information from the database. So before you start databases (mysql) php is required otherwise you will have information in the database but unable to retrieve and display it.
When learning any language, make sure you know the basics! So many people try to run before they walk, I know it is more fun, but it will save you time as you wont make silly mistakes that take hours to fix and all it is was a simple syntax mistake.
For php
http://www.php.net is a great resource!
Dont worry about customising apache. The most you will need to do for the first couple of years is turn on all errors on your testing server and possibly increase
post size and
execution script time. This is all done within a text config file (php.ini) - so not difficult to do once you have found it.
Just to finish off I would like to add that there are other client and server side programming languages that do the same as the ones we are discussing - before some smart arse tries to be funny. But the languages you have chosen to learn are the best.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:23 am
by The_Anomaly
I really like the list that was formerly posted, although I might debate the necessity of some of the later technologies (i.e. flex, actionscript). One thing I've found was so wonderful about PHP is that there's such a plethora of information out there. The php.net manual is like a divine gift, and if it's not on there, google has it somewhere.
I've said it before, and both when I learned Coldfusion and when I learned PHP, the strategy has worked very well. Just start developing a site. If you don't have the base knowledge, check out a beginner's book for PHP and MySQL, like
this, and get coding! Make a project, and start figuring out every little problem in it. Search for the best way to do things, ask when you get really stuck, but just get started on a non-tutorial project. IMHO, that's the best and most efficient way to learn. And heck! You might end up building something useful in the end

Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:20 pm
by gamerzedge
Yea I often try to run before I can walk, lol. I have the book "Learning PHP & MySQL" by O'Reilly to get me started in php and then mysql. It is difficult because the webpages you want to start building include user input and a database but I guess I have to let that go just for a bit and build a hobby static page or something to get me started.
A few more questions, if you guys don't mind

. How do you plan your layout or design? I find a lot of designers build their pages in photoshop or gimp and will slice them into their frames. Is this a good way to do it or is it amateur and there is a better way for best practice to plan and design the layout?
I just downloaded the manual from php.net which looks to be very resourceful.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:04 pm
by jaoudestudios
I design my sites in photoshop or gimp first, therefore when I see it altogether, if I dont like it I can easily move stuff around. Do NOT slice it up and use tables to layout the pages and have most of the page as images - it is very childish, slow, inefficient, google wont rank it high, w3c will hate it....the list goes on.
Let us know when you have some examples up so we can take a sneak peak and give you some pointers to, if you like?!?!
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:49 am
by gamerzedge
That would be great, if you could critique my designs so to speak.
So if you don't slice it but you do design the whole site in photoshop or gimp, how do you take the product from the photo program and turn it into the website? Or, do you mean do not do EVERYTHING in the photo program, in otherwords, don't type your content in your content areas and so forth in the photo program.
Also, what is the default size you begin designing your websites at? I have been using 960x900 based off a basic tutorial I found on help-developer.com.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:25 am
by jaoudestudios
We would be able to look at your designs and your source code, so can give you pointers on both, that is how we all learnt
You can put the content text into the graphics program (photoshop/gimp) to get a feel for the site, but do not chop it out and use it as an image in your webpage. Basically use a minimum amount of images in your web page.
Your default size is good. The height can change (increase), but the width should not go more than 960px.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:22 pm
by Christopher
I think the best, and probably only way to learn is to have an actual problem to solve. You can certainly gain information that will help you solve future problems by reading or discussion. But until you actually have a problem that needs to be solved any information you have will be abstract. You really need to keep spiraling up and out through the technologies needed for web applications.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:40 pm
by Bill H
The last few are a bit flaky.
Okay, um. On second thought I'll pass.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:01 pm
by califdon
I would only like to comment on jaoudestudios' list, that I would ratchet up Javascript a couple of notches. With all its faults, it is still a necessity for a great many web sites, if for nothing more than rollovers, and I'd place it right after html and css.
Re: Web Programming from Beginning to End +Bonus Question :P
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:22 pm
by gamerzedge
Thanks for your input everyone. I have been working on little projects and finding problems and learning how to work around them. I find that there is a lot more to CSS than I had originally thought so I am reading a book on that topic right now before moving into php.
When I have a site for everyone to critique I will make a new post.