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PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:46 pm
by foobaa
Hiya,

Sorry if this post is in the wrong forum.

I've just quite recently had an idea that I'm liking the idea of more and more, and would like to know what people think of the idea, and if they'd like to join in with the idea.

Foreword: I've been looking at frameworks for some time and haven't come close to finding something I like. They're all too complicated, too restricted, too versatile, and generally either overkill or inadequate. Just my opinion but I find them frustrating and generally incur more work than without them. My goal has always been to develop a library of code snippets and a light, flexible, RAD style framework or whatever to make web-app development as painless as possible. However doing it with just one person is a big undertaking.

I'm writing this post to try to find other php developers in a similar situation - self employed freelancers - that would want to collaborate in developing a set of compatible modules (or framework or whatever... specifics later?) to firstly remove repetitive, arduous programming tasks, but also to reduce the complexity of larger applications.

Anything developed would be shared between the group, and distribution rights etc could be agreed but probably restrictions like no reselling without group consent, etc.

Even more could be done such as assigning someone the task of managing a code repository, as well as designing or implementing and managing workflow tools, testing suites etc.

What I'm hoping to do is bring a group of freelancers together, each keeping their own company identity and current style of operations, but to bring to each of us the strenghts commonly only found in larger web development companies such as efficiency benefits, individuals' combined strengths, and larger code base.

Last but not least there could be some marketing benefits of teaming together.

Please feel free to reply here, or email me at jody@logicsmiths.co.uk.

My website: http://logicsmiths.co.uk
Personal: http://jody.florian.co.uk

All the best - I look forward to hearing from you
Jody

Edit: One more thing... we could really learn from each other... I've realised that working as a freelancer is difficult because being in a company makes it easier to stay on top of latest developments and ideas, and although forums like this are great, having a more focused approach to these goals could do more?

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:04 am
by onion2k
foobaa wrote:Anything developed would be shared between the group, and distribution rights etc could be agreed but probably restrictions like no reselling without group consent, etc.
Shared "within the group" and no reselling? Does that mean this framework won't be open source? That's a massive failure already then.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:30 am
by foobaa
Why do you say that? I think open source suffers from bloat and lack of direction... this would definitely be a commercial venture.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:37 am
by aceconcepts
I don't understand how open source suffers from lack of direction - explain please...

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:39 am
by foobaa
No offense but can I ask... why are you being difficult?? If you don't agree with or understand my opinion you could either realise that this post isn't for you, or kindly debate it. Thanks. I'm all to happy to learn. But to answer your question I was thinking of applications like smarty, wordpress and phpBB among others. Ok fine, it was an over generalised statement. I still stand by what I'm saying in general in my post but feel free to nit pick!!

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:51 am
by aceconcepts
I'm just wondering what reasons you have for quite blatantly stating that open source has lack of direction.

If you can add some logic to your statements and back them up then maybe readers will feel more oblidged to respond.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:58 am
by foobaa
I actually thought it was quite a well known argument that open source gets bloated because of a lack of direction - I didn't think I had to go into the details but maybe I hit a sore spot since this site probably has its fair share of open source die hards l.o.l.

In short, I would say that commercial ventures have more drive to ultimately deliver what the customer wants, not what they think they should have. This ethos often leads to bloat.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:04 am
by aceconcepts
I'm not being argumentative, i'm just trying to help you get what you came here for.

It's pretty obvious that there are "open source die hards" here - it's a PHP forum!

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:07 am
by onion2k
foobaa wrote:Why do you say that? I think open source suffers from bloat and lack of direction... this would definitely be a commercial venture.
Whether a project suffers from bloat and lack of direction has nothing whatsoever to do with it being open source or not. There are plenty of bloated, directionless closed source projects. The quality of the project is down to the person leading it regardless of the license that it's released under. Also, a project can be open source and still be a commercial success. PHP is. MySQL is. Apache is. Mozilla is. Linux is.

Regardless of that though... why should I team up with you rather than someone else? Sell your skills to me. What you can do that would make me choose you as a colleague? I looked at your logicsmiths.co.uk website. The form validation is in javascript, and doesn't actually validate anything properly (it accepted "asd" as a valid email address). You have blank, unfinished pages ( http://logicsmiths.co.uk/affiliates.php ). Your disclaimer appears to have been lifted from either another website or a stock template disclaimer ( http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:PYVM ... =firefox-a ... first line of Information and Pricing matches yours). It seems odd that you're concerned about people reselling an application when you're happy to take something someone has probably paid quite an expensive lawyer to produce.

These are the standard sorts of things anyone will ask before committing time and possibly money to a project. So far I'm not terribly impressed. But that isn't to say you might not have an idea that's brilliant. What do you envisage this framework doing that, for example, Zend doesn't?

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:25 am
by foobaa
Ok I'm clearly doing something very wrong here, I can't say I feel remotely welcome so I'm just going to stop trying to explain myself against all this fierce resistance and look elsewhere for people with whom I would like to do business. It's good to have critique but really, your choice of tone, time and place was blatently hostile.

:offtopic:

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:31 am
by aceconcepts
I'm not siding with onion2k but you have to admit - he makes a very good point!!!

Good luck in your venture :D

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:37 am
by foobaa
Yes, they're all valid points, but hardly relevant?! lol!! What a crazy thread. Nevermind.

But thanks nonetheless.. Good luck too

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:48 am
by onion2k
foobaa wrote:Yes, they're all valid points, but hardly relevant?! lol!! What a crazy thread. Nevermind.
How are they not relevant? You're talking about a project that's going to take a great deal of time and energy, and possibly some money, to get up and running. I certainly wouldn't want to undertake that sort of thing unless I knew the person I was going to work with was capable, dedicated and enthusiastic about developing good software that I can use to make money.

If we were talking about an free (as in speech) open source project that was designed to bring a few developers together to learn about designing and building a software framework then my attitude to the whole thing would be very different. I'd be very positive. That sort of thing is a great idea for people who aren't already experts. But you raised the point about money, business, and restrictive software licenses. That changes everything. As soon as money is involved I believe it's imperative that everyone on board is capable of showing they have a proven record of a good quality professional approach to the skill they're bringing to the project. And I'm sorry, but what you've put in front of us so far doesn't demonstrate that professionalism.

I wish you the best of luck pursuing this here or elsewhere if you decide to leave. I strongly advise you to be very wary of anyone who wants to get in on this without raising the things I've raised though. They'll either be inexperienced and unable to contribute anything, or they'll be looking to take a load of work from you without giving you anything in return.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:53 am
by alex.barylski
I've been looking at frameworks for some time and haven't come close to finding something I like
Hey why not...everyone is doing it. Although words like "complex" or "bloated" are quite vague terms. Unless you can explicitly come up with individual complaints about each framework, and a better solution your probably going to just end up re-inventing the wheel and maybe result in a square wheel, not a nice polished round one. ;)
Just my opinion but I find them frustrating and generally incur more work than without them
That is the crux of software in general. Cool things take time to learn, Great things take less time but still require some learning.
My goal has always been to develop a library of code snippets and a light, flexible, RAD style framework or whatever to make web-app development as painless as possible. However doing it with just one person is a big undertaking
You know what that translates into? A framework suited to your development style with so many adhoc dependencies no one else would ever use it. Dependencies are what kill it for me and most frameworks. Just because developer A thinks a model/view should be a 1:1 or model:controller doesn't mean it's good practice.
I'm writing this post to try to find other php developers in a similar situation - self employed freelancers - that would want to collaborate in developing a set of compatible modules (or framework or whatever... specifics later?) to firstly remove repetitive, arduous programming tasks, but also to reduce the complexity of larger applications.
What is complex to you? Lines of code? Code readability? Personally, again it's dependencies that kill it for me. When I change one class and those changes are flet across the system because of dependencies, I cringe cause I know what is in store for me.
Anything developed would be shared between the group, and distribution rights etc could be agreed but probably restrictions like no reselling without group consent, etc.
What would be the benefit of that? For starters no one is going to buy a framework, when there are dozens of freely open source frameworks.
Edit: One more thing... we could really learn from each other... I've realised that working as a freelancer is difficult because being in a company makes it easier to stay on top of latest developments and ideas, and although forums like this are great, having a more focused approach to these goals could do more?
I would say quite the opposite. Working for the man means your dollar is his/her dollar which usually means you do things as your told to do them. Freelancing allows experimentation and forces you to constantly tweak your skillset to stay ahead of the game. I think working for someone else breeds complacency which stiffles innovation.
Why do you say that? I think open source suffers from bloat and lack of direction... this would definitely be a commercial venture.
While I agree with the bloat remark commercial software is not less guilty, there are simple different forces at work.

Commercial = features = more money
Open source = features = programmer ego

Seems many projects loose focus on KISS
No offense but can I ask... why are you being difficult?? If you don't agree with or understand my opinion you could either realise that this post isn't for you, or kindly debate it
Hopefully I have kindly debated. I disagree with 99% of what is said (even when subconsciously I might agree) if for any other reason then to just challenged my own understanding.
I'm just wondering what reasons you have for quite blatantly stating that open source has lack of direction.
To many chefs in the kitchen. As a team lead you are at the mercy of the community. If you don't implement features which are wanted, you'll experience a project fork and lose community. Too many people with to many visions and you start seeing double and lose clear focus set forth by one executive decision maker, like that in commercial software. Yes there are commercial open source projects, that is not the point.
I actually thought it was quite a well known argument that open source gets bloated because of a lack of direction - I didn't think I had to go into the details but maybe I hit a sore spot since this site probably has its fair share of open source die hards l.o.l.
Yes it does. Personally I think OSS was a huge mistake and the greatest idea both at the same time. On one hand, why would a consumer pay anything when they can get it for free (I disagree with the sentiment about support -- different subject) on the other hand some cool projects have come out of it.

The problem with PHP open source is it's cluttered with poorly written software because the learning curve is so low a newbie can start a project tomorrow. The quality of the projects increases exponentially when you look at C/C++ -- which is effectively 99% of LAMP.

Re: PHP Framework... anyone wanna make one??

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:53 am
by panic!