Page 1 of 1

KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:28 am
by JAB Creations
Konqueror 4's default minimum font-size is "7" which after a bit of investigation essentially equates to 16px. I have a part of my site's GUI that requires the font-size to be no larger then 11px.

The following have yielded no results in overriding the default...
font-size
font-size !important
font-size-adjust
line-height

Essentially at best all I can do is apply white-space: nowrap; which prevents the text from overflowing. It's still difficult to read.

Obviously changing the default setting in the browser is completely unacceptable: you can't expect your visitors to adjust their personal preferences just for your site.

However in contrast this simply is an unacceptable scenario. It wouldn't be an issue if the default minimum size were reasonable or if it could be overridden using !important.

Are all KDE users blind or something? Suggestions?

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:35 pm
by matthijs
JAB Creations wrote:Are all KDE users blind or something? Suggestions?
Not sure if all 5 of them are blind. But if they are not, they probably will not have to strain their eyes as other browsers' users have to do to read those tiny 11px fonts on websites :wink:

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:11 pm
by Benjamin
Yeah I can't say that a discrimination UI developer would be even the slightest bit concerned about Konqueror. I'd focus more on the main stream browsers and the mini browsers in portable devices such as the iPhone.

As an aside however, it's not practical to think that you have control over the font size. Your layout should be able to gracefully handle font-size changes without breaking, which I would venture to suggest is the root of your problem.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:23 pm
by JAB Creations
Hmm, I'll leave it at poor choices on the developer's end. It works fine in pretty much everything else.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:06 am
by matthijs
I don't understand your problem.
First, 16px is not very big. It's a reasonable font-size. (more websites should use it I say)
Second, if Konquerer wants to bring a browser to the market with that font-size as the minimum, they have the right to do so.
Last, as astions pointed out, you should not even try to control everything in every browser out there. Maybe people using konquerer are very happy about that minimum font-size. Maybe they use that browser exactly for that reason, so they don't have to look at those tiny font-sizes used by many websites.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:21 am
by JAB Creations
You guys are completely missing the point: this option is enabled by default. It's an opt-out option. I have no problem with an opt-in option...users will be aware how to adjust if it they initially set it. 16px may not seem large though when trying to support resolutions such as the exact same OS's default resolution of 800x600 and maintaining compatible layouts it this default option chews right in to the designer's freedom to competently code a page. Eh, forget it...

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:43 am
by matthijs
No, I'm afraid you are completely missing the point.
Many browsers' default is 16px. There's nothing wrong with 16px as the default. Many people would prefer that.

But the main point you are missing is that you are trying to force people and their web browsers in things you have set up. But the fact is, it's the people's webbrowser, not yours as a website maker. Trying to take over the control of someone's web browser is rude. if someone has a webbrowser with 16px default font-size, you must not mess with that. It's the same as breaking my back-button or disallowing my right-click button functionality.

You have to let go of that control on the web. You can't and shouldn't want to control everything. If you do, you better switch careers and go into desktop publishing, printing pixel-perfect posters with exact measurements and exact CMYK colors.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:58 am
by JAB Creations
Your exact wording proves you're missing my point. I stated very clearly that I don't mind if users change their defaults however I completely disagree with strict defaults that conflict with supporting the same platform's defaults! Having a default of 10px would be acceptable however even that font-size is more then readable if you have a look at my sig's quote. You're also missing the point because I am talking about the default *minimal* font-size while you're only referring to the default font-size when a font-size is not declared.

The browser presumes that all people are by default near-blind. I am in no conceivable manner attempting to override someone's personal settings. If they manually turn the font-size up that's fine, it's intentional by user. The system default is however completely unacceptable and that is what I'm trying to correct on behalf of the user having an acceptable browsing experience. You're suggesting that such a default is somehow acceptable.

Perhaps we should turn all the text on the entire internet bold while we're at it? Oh wait...Safari already does that. You can't argue that a font that looks like it's been trampled over by a pack of elephants doesn't look bold. You can't argue that font-size 10 is unreadable by most people let alone 12 or 14px. You can't argue that a user is too stupid to adjust their browser's font-size and thus somehow needs an asinine sized minimal font-size forced on them and the people who make the websites they view. Most people who don't know how to adjust something make some sort of inquiry...a search engine, through email, IM, or a friend; the rest...well those are the ones who only post in the forums for an answer without the desire to learn. As for a website that looks goofy because the text is too big for the menus...that ends up being the visitor thinking the website wasn't built right instead of their browser. I'm at 1920x1200 five feet away from my screen and no one I've asked has any problems with it. You have to let go of asinine defaults just like the Linux community has to embrace RPM installers and let go of their console fetish or else the platform will remain niche.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:42 am
by matthijs
Ok, one last try.

I know perfectly well that you're talking about minimal font-size.

The fact is, that this browser we're talking about has a default minimal font-size of 16px. Now please tell me, what is wrong with that?
Is it too big? Well we can't answer that. That's subjective. What's too big for you is too small for someone else. Saying "The browser presumes that all people are by default near-blind" is silly and ridiculous. Apparently you have better then normal eyesight. But I bet most people find 16 px quite comfortable. With more people getting older and more older people using the internet, I would not assume your visitors enjoy your 10px text. But again, this question is irrelevant to the discussion.

The main point is, someone choosing to use that specific browser chooses to have that browsers' behavior. including that default (minimum) font-size. Someone using that browser will see all text on all websites he visits with (at least) 16px size. So that is what he is used to see. And maybe that is what he prefers to see.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:49 am
by JAB Creations
So essentially it barrels down to enforcing your preference or perception that most people are too ignorant to figure out how to adjust the font-size in their browsers and that more people then not have difficulty reading normal sized text. In fact in XP fonts begin to get bold past 17px even if they aren't necessarily set as bold under certain circumstances. Maybe my site caters to people with low resolutions or to people with "super" eye sight.

A user is much more likely to blame the website then their browser if something looks funny such as text blowing out of their menus where as if they decide the fonts are too small they would obviously inquire how to increase the size. Besides I know my site's demographics, do you? :P

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:44 am
by matthijs
JAB Creations wrote:So essentially it barrels down to enforcing your preference or perception that most people are too ignorant to figure out how to adjust the font-size in their browsers and that more people then not have difficulty reading normal sized text. In fact in XP fonts begin to get bold past 17px even if they aren't necessarily set as bold under certain circumstances. Maybe my site caters to people with low resolutions or to people with "super" eye sight.
Enforcing my preference or perception that most people are too ignorant to figure out how to adjust the font-size in their browsers? No, I don't think so. I'm not enforcing anything. I'm just saying that if person A chooses to use browser B with default font-size C (whatever that may be), it is his or her choice. If someone is trying to enforce anything, it is you. You try to change the default behavior of that browser.

Or, "enforcing .. the perception ... that more people then not have difficulty reading normal sized text"? What am I enforcing? I'm just saying that I believe 10px is small for most people. But again, it is not about what you or I find "normal".
JAB Creations wrote:A user is much more likely to blame the website then their browser if something looks funny such as text blowing out of their menus where as if they decide the fonts are too small they would obviously inquire how to increase the size. Besides I know my site's demographics, do you? :P
But apparently this browser has that minimal text-size for all websites. So he or she using that browser won't know any different. Again, as I said, maybe that person even chooses to use that browser for that specific reason.

If text blows out of a menu at 16px size you definitely should change the way your menu is coded. Either build it scalable (check out Dan Cederholms book Bulletproof web design, excellent CSS book), or, if you really really want to have everything fixed and pixel-perfect use images (not my preference).

My site's demographics? 0.1% uses konquaror.

Re: KHTML Konqueror minimum default font-size is 16px!

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:09 am
by JAB Creations
matthijs wrote:it is his or her choice. If someone is trying to enforce anything, it is you. You try to change the default behavior of that browser.
You have it half right, it is their choice. It also remains their choice. If I override the erred default they will still be able to increase the font-size regardless. I de-bolded non-bold text in Safari and you can still re-bold it in the preferences if you prefer.

Look, I'm not interested in debating this and it's dragged on much longer then I care to bother with. Konqueror is a mess in so many other ways I'd rather deal with IE6 to be honest. No I'm not joking, at least you can fix IE and it doesn't take as long or as much effort as most people think unless you're talking DOM (which I'm not).