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Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:35 pm
by blueyon
josh wrote:blueyon wrote:ZF should not be used for anything.
Dude I read your thread on sitepoint its full of nonsense. You seem to be just full of spite. If you can code a cache package in 5 minutes better then ZF, then do it. And I don't mean untestable code coupled to the file system like
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showpos ... stcount=36
So are you saying ZF is bug free?
The more code you use the more chance there is of bugs. ZF is still has lots of bugs. just look at the bug tracker.
Keep things simple and there are less to no bugs.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:05 am
by josh
Keep things simple and you don't have to write code. What are you even arguing about anyways.
PHP has a lot of bugs. Just look at THEIR bug tracker. So... noone should use your opensource cart project since PHP has bugs
http://bugs.php.net/bugstats.php
http://framework.zend.com/issues/
The framework has 10% the amount of bugs that the language has. And I suppose all of your code is bug free too

lol yea right
And most of those are so minor they don't affect anyone.
And while you spend hours and hours worrying about premature optimization my clients will just deploy a quad core server with 64GB of ram and laugh that we just saved months off the project development by being able to use a more powerful framework.
In order to use your caching class now I have to have global constants defined. Sounds soo much better then Zend ( sarcasm). I would take a slow framework any day over one that uses global state. What if you wanted to store different types of data in different cache paths? Now you gotta rewrite your cache class. What about the 100s of other common, necessary features of a cache class that you didn't even consider, let alone come close to implementing?
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:09 am
by JNettles
ZF is still has lots of bugs. just look at the bug tracker.
What software doesn't? I defy you to find me an entirely bug free program. Take a look at any of the frameworks out there - they
all have major/minor issues awaiting fixes. In fact, one could argue that Zend is one of the better frameworks to run into a bug with since it has such a large community and active development team and bugs fixes are written, tested, and deployed very rapidly.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:29 am
by blueyon
Caching classes are simple to build weather its using memcache or file caching etc..
If you want to compare cache classes then look at Kohana an off shoot of code igniter. It uses to many static methods for my liking but it does things a lot simpler that ZF.
http://www.kohanaphp.com
"The framework has 10% the amount of bugs that the language has. And I suppose all of your code is bug free too lol yea right"
Thats because PHP is a lot bigger application.
Look another problem I have with a ZF it just continues to push people into writing sloppy code. Technically with OOP you are supposed to be able to visually design applications using UML and be able to click generate button to generate about 90% of the code for you. This is the way they coded back when OOP was invented (they used black boards to map out there program before even touching any code). It was the way I was taught at college when programming Java. All the documentation, classes, API was done for you at a click of a button. How much easier would it be for mulitple developers that work on the same application over time when they can visually see the layout of program.
You can not do this with ZF or many of the other PHP frameworks out there. Its just so anoying. What happened to all the ERD stuff showing the relationship between classes? People just build things on the fly and use static methods or functions to move dependencies around rather than passing themn through a constuctor like there supposed to.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:59 am
by JNettles
So your argument is that people should write every application from the ground up? The fact is that reinventing the wheel every time you start a new project costs too much money. Personally, I would love to be able to write my own software bottom-to-top for the enjoyment of it, but sadly, I'm an employee of a company and I would have a little trouble justifying 400-500 man hours creating a system that already exists to the board. Instead of writing my own CMS from the ground up I download Joomla, spend maybe 20-30 man hours learning the necessary architecture, and then develop whatever components or modules I need for the site. Could I write my own CMS? Sure. Is it practical? No. Because 1) Our company doesn't have the resources to support such a massive undertaking. 2) Don't have the development staff. 3) Don't have the time, money, or staff necessary to support, maintain, and patch the homegrown framework.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:59 am
by josh
"ball point pens sucks because books should write themselves"
And again you use untestable code, with global state, and general bad practice, as an example of something you think is better. Bugs and LOC do not correlate! The space shuttle was half a million lines of code, how come they didn't have 100k bugs?
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:12 pm
by blueyon
JNettles wrote:So your argument is that people should write every application from the ground up? The fact is that reinventing the wheel every time you start a new project costs too much money. Personally, I would love to be able to write my own software bottom-to-top for the enjoyment of it, but sadly, I'm an employee of a company and I would have a little trouble justifying 400-500 man hours creating a system that already exists to the board. Instead of writing my own CMS from the ground up I download Joomla, spend maybe 20-30 man hours learning the necessary architecture, and then develop whatever components or modules I need for the site. Could I write my own CMS? Sure. Is it practical? No. Because 1) Our company doesn't have the resources to support such a massive undertaking. 2) Don't have the development staff. 3) Don't have the time, money, or staff necessary to support, maintain, and patch the homegrown framework.
no! over time as people skill develop they will have there own light weight framework to use. I'm saying don;t use ZF becuase its a pile of speggeti rubish.
Even Joomla's own framework is better than ZF.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:17 pm
by blueyon
"The space shuttle was half a million lines of code, how come they didn't have 100k bugs"
The thing about creating code for space ships is that they probably use the correct OOP practises creating UML diagrams passing dependances through the constructor rather that have static methods coming out of no where. They probably use visual diagrams of the computer code rather then the spaghetti mess ZF creates. ZF calls its self an enterprise framework but its just causes messy coding. If it was truly an enterprise framework it would uses the correct practises.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:35 pm
by superdezign
blueyon wrote:"The space shuttle was half a million lines of code, how come they didn't have 100k bugs"
The thing about creating code for space ships is that they probably use the correct OOP practises creating UML diagrams passing dependances through the constructor rather that have static methods coming out of no where. They probably visual diagrams of the computer code rather then the spaghetti mess ZF creates. ZF calls its self an enterprise framework but its just causes messy coding. If it was truly an enterprise framework it would uses the correct practises.
Space shuttles have been going up for quite some time... For all you know, they don't utilize OOP at all.
And who are you to say that ZF's architecture isn't based on carefully planned out UML diagrams? It's an open-source project with many contributors. I'd imagine the chances of all of them being incompetent is slim.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:39 pm
by John Cartwright
Maybe if we ignore him he will go away...
Seriously.. lets see some base to these claims.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:43 pm
by superdezign
This whole thread in general, no matter who's speaking, would have wiki's "weasel words" alarm on full blast. :3
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:20 pm
by blueyon
superdezign wrote:And who are you to say that ZF's architecture isn't based on carefully planned out UML diagrams? It's an open-source project with many contributors. I'd imagine the chances of all of them being incompetent is slim.
You can tell there is not. There is no abilty in ZF to have programs generate the classes for you. Look at some of the linux projects where they use modeling toools built into eclipse.
I'm not saying their all incompetent. I'm assuming that Zend started off the classes and others just followed the pattern. I believe having all those contributers has caused alot of problems. Not every one is on the same programming level and people who don't know any better make bad decisions.
With my own project i'm the only one developing it because I can not find people with the same skill level. I once opened it to the community and the people who were adding features just started adding large amounts of code to do simple tasks. I ending up removing the stuff they had dopne and wrote a more optimised code.
Acutally none of you have made good arguments for using ZF. ZF is badly code pile of crap. You didn't even look properly a kohana and how simple and light there cache class is compared to ZF. I'm not promoting kohana as I don't beleve in using globals. But ZF also uses static methods which are pretty much the same thing.
If you want to uses hudrends of classes for simle stuff or write inefficient code because you have a server that has a lot of power thas up to you. but please don't tell me its the good thing to do.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:25 pm
by JNettles
no! over time as people skill develop they will have there own light weight framework to use. I'm saying don;t use ZF becuase its a pile of speggeti rubish.
Even Joomla's own framework is better than ZF.
A statement of such profound ignorance and misinformation I can't even begin to formulate a dignified response. I suggest you actually work on an enterprise-level project that requires some skill and planning before you keep spewing these meaningless generalizations.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:30 pm
by blueyon
Other people here agree with me. some of them posted about not using zend when we started talking about it. They just can not be bothered arguing with the brain dead ZF crowd.
I have worked on enterprise-level projects and would not use ZF because because it causes such messy code.
Re: MVC Frameworks?
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:38 pm
by Eran
Other people here agree with me
I would think, by now, nobody here agrees with you.