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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:41 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
BDKR wrote:If you haven't been programming long, then the last thing you need to do is jump into OO. Especially if this (PHP) is your first language. In order to be a truly good programmer, you need to understand some foundation stuff. Algorithms, data structures, memory allocation, etc.... It's possible to take the OO route right now and still be a good programmer, but you'll allways be at a loss when you start to consider issues relating to low level 'under-the-hood' operations and how they effect high level scripting languages like PHP.

One option would be to take both routes. Learn C or Pascal. Not C++ or Object Pascal. Do some research on algorithms and data structures and try to pay attention to some of the conversation on the PHP internals list. The more you chew, the more you understand.
In reading above (sorry for the C++ ref!) it read as if you recommended a PHP student should learn C or Pascal as a primer to understanding PHP as a "good programmer". Such an assertion is questionable. Not in fact, but in reality - who needs C to learn PHP? Is the time invested worth the benefit?
BDKR wrote:I don't feel it's good for individuals that really want to learn how to program to do so without an understanding of how their code is affecting the machine. On the other hand, if all you're concerened about is building web sites and apps for bozos in suits so they can get their reports faster, go right on ahead don't worry about what I'm saying.
Yeah its not ideal, but life's not perfect and somehow we manage to wing it... Theory is essential for progressing towards professional programming - but we left the "save every byte" days behind a decade or more ago. Most PHP developers today only require a basic understanding of typical PHP optimisation tips. There are far more important areas to study - like business modelling, useability, design patterns and all that other bozo rubbish...
AKA Panama Jack wrote:By reducing the memory overhead you also increase execution speed in most cases. There is a form of memory allocation when programming in PHP. It's called efficient programming and not throwing code at a problem.
That wasn't exact memory allocation I was referring to. I had thought BDKR was aiming a little lower with the C/Pascal refs. Memory management as a function of good design in a higher level language is important - but does not require a major in C. How hard can it be to equate big script with big memory? Overly simplistic - but in many cases the shoe doth fit...

I keep thinking of the people who argue the benefits of double quotes vs single quotes for strings. Yay, we saved a whole microsecond...:)
Lets not compare the size of our keyboards, gentlemen. Keep it clean.
13 years little man. Cower before my inflated ego in terror...;) Muahahahaha. Ahem.

In conclusion to this interminable ramble of mine. Without saying you're wrong (not that stupid) your original response gave the impression that being a good programmer in PHP required C. Its entirely within the realm of possibility you meant no such thing - but I shot my cannon across your bow to point out its useful but hardly required. Knowing how to squeeze those bytes isn't really all that useful to a PHP programmer. PHP has its own body of optimisation tips that work for Joe Bloggs who think "C? Is that like C++?" ;)

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:43 am
by Charles256
:: pulls out his forty two inch keyboard:: top that laddies! :-D

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:03 am
by BDKR
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote: In conclusion to this interminable ramble of mine. Without saying you're wrong (not that stupid) your original response gave the impression that being a good programmer in PHP required C. Its entirely within the realm of possibility you meant no such thing - but I shot my cannon across your bow to point out its useful but hardly required. Knowing how to squeeze those bytes isn't really all that useful to a PHP programmer. PHP has its own body of optimisation tips that work for Joe Bloggs who think "C? Is that like C++?" ;)
Let's just focus on the above.
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote: Its entirely within the realm of possibility you meant no such thing - but I shot my cannon across your bow to point out its useful but hardly required.
If you had really read and understood what I wrote, you would note that I didn't say it was required to be a good programmer.
BDKR wrote: It's possible to take the OO route right now and still be a good programmer, ...
So it's more then within the realm of possibility, it's a fact.
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote: Without saying you're wrong (not that stupid) your original response gave the impression that being a good programmer in PHP required C.
The impression? As opposed to what was actually written? Here is what I wrote.
BDKR wrote: In order to be a truly good programmer, you need to understand some foundation stuff. Algorithms, data structures, memory allocation, etc....
It just so happens that it's C where you are most likely to encounter those things and still get a lot of help.

Anyway, I stand by my assertion that to be better then good at just pushing high level apps for bozo's in suits, you need a greater understanding of what's happening closer to the metal. It seems that in the PHP community, and even on this board, we are so overcome with glam and glitter of the buzz word mumbo jumbo that we either fail to realize or think it's OK that we're creating a community of programmers that can build roofs just fine but are lost when we start talking about walls and foundations. Now while I agree with you that we aren't pushing bytes in PHP (other then the fact that it's obvious), this still manifests itself in other ways. Recursion is a perfect example. I've encountered and worked with some great programmers that cringe at the thought of recursion and have a very hard time generating a function or method that uses it.

As for ...
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote: Memory management as a function of good design in a higher level language is important - but does not require a major in C. How hard can it be to equate big script with big memory? Overly simplistic - but in many cases the shoe doth fit...
A good design is still more then capable of hiding some brutal nasties that may not be apparent during testing (normally because the developer never tested with an appropriate load in the first place). In the lego world of OO, how many application developers are going to really pay attention to the algorithm any of those classes may be using? While any one of those developers of the classes in use in a high level ap of good design may know the mechanics of OO, what if they never spent a significant amount of time understanding algorithms? Then here comes an application developer who doesn't care about that stuff and is at a loss to fix it once the app has gone live.

The link below does a good job of explaining what I'm talking about.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ ... 00319.html

But whatever the case, if you don't agree, that's cool. Just make sure you have a clear picture of the target area next time you fire that cannon.

Cheers

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:08 am
by BDKR
Charles256 wrote::: pulls out his forty two inch keyboard:: top that laddies! :-D
As a programmer, I would think you would prefer discussion to oneupmanship!

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:10 am
by Charles256
I do, I was just picking at them for arguing..or heated discussion, whatever they're calling it. That and I like to let people know I'm still here,watching,waiting..planning..erm..yeah...you didn't think it was a serious comment I hope :-D

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:49 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
But whatever the case, if you don't agree, that's cool. Just make sure you have a clear picture of the target area next time you fire that cannon.
Like I stated it was indeed an "impression". From reading it again I still get the impression. That's what really sucks about reading someone else's material. They write it one way, and then along comes Joe who reads it another way.

Putting it another way. (I'm trying not to dig into crazed stuff - I get weirdly interested in word games - evil Irishman warning) Using something like "Its possible...but" gives an idea less credence. I think at that sentence I sort of spun of on the evangelical trek...

I apologise for the error on my part. I generally don't run solely on "impressions" but it would appear I fell in th pit today.

Damn, now my egos deflated... :roll:

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:18 pm
by BDKR
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote: Damn, now my egos deflated... :roll:
Don't do that! With an avatar as feirce as yours I hope there's some teeth behind it. :wink:

I have not yet committed to the idea (may put it off one more year so I can take more time off), but I may be in your neck of the woods in March or April. Want to knock back a couple if I do? Besides, I think there are couple of phpdn'rs on that side of the pond. That would be a cool party.

errr

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:29 pm
by GRemm
Cool? I don't think that the normal interpretation of that word would apply to a bunch of phpdn'ers having a get together. Fun, certainly. Educational, maybe. Cool.. ?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:09 pm
by Charles256
you've never seen me tote a beer...

Re: errr

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:08 am
by onion2k
GRemm wrote:Cool? I don't think that the normal interpretation of that word would apply to a bunch of phpdn'ers having a get together. Fun, certainly. Educational, maybe. Cool.. ?
.. a bunch of mostly affluent, intelligent, like-minded, young people getting together in a pub .. why wouldn't that be cool?

Re: errr

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:01 am
by patrikG
GRemm wrote:Cool? I don't think that the normal interpretation of that word would apply to a bunch of phpdn'ers having a get together. Fun, certainly. Educational, maybe. Cool.. ?
Are you getting the "impression"? ;) What's cooler than sitting in a pub with a couple of good and very cool mates, a cool pint in winter, when it's definitely cool outside?

Remember: Chuck Norris is so cool, he gets calls from villages destruction by lava streaming down one side of the mountain. So Chuck Norris goes there, looks at the lava and it turns into solid rock after retreating half a mile up the mountain. That's cool.

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:33 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Given my schedule I'll be living in a Cave somewhere in Ireland for a long time...;) I may see the light in a few months though. Assuming the persistent clouds over here ever disipate...

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:21 pm
by GRemm
Don't get me wrong.. I would love to sit in a 'pub' with a 'pint' and some smart people into the same things I am.
I would have a blast. Hell, I have a blast with just the beer and the bar without the people.

I posted my comment more in an effort to distract everyone from the heated discussion going on and to make light of being a total nerd. Which I am and damned proud of it.

I wish they had real pubs in California. And snooker tables.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:16 am
by m3mn0n
AKA Panama Jack wrote:I have been programming for 26 years
Damn, really? That's cool.

That's 5 years more than I've been alive for. :wink:

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:04 am
by BDKR
GRemm wrote:Don't get me wrong.. I would love to sit in a 'pub' with a 'pint' and some smart people into the same things I am.
I would have a blast. Hell, I have a blast with just the beer and the bar without the people.

I posted my comment more in an effort to distract everyone from the heated discussion going on and to make light of being a total nerd. Which I am and damned proud of it.

I wish they had real pubs in California. And snooker tables.
Well, I'm still into the idea. I'm just waiting to see what my schedule is supposed to be like through April. I'll know more in a couple of weeks. Hanging out with anybody with similar interests makes it easy to be comfortable before the real fun begins. :twisted: