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Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:51 pm
by josh
arborint wrote: And we go from off topic to way off topic! :)
Sorry, I'll create a separate thread where we can discuss how off-topic this thread has become :P

I was merely posting those links because Spectra seemed 100% confident that if he built the system people would switch over, given less bugs and more features. I was just pointing out the fallacy on the business perspective of that statement :P

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:08 am
by alex.barylski
I was merely posting those links because Spectra seemed 100% confident that if he built the system people would switch over, given less bugs and more features. I was just pointing out the fallacy on the business perspective of that statement
It would be a hard sell...but I read plenty of blogs where people who feel just like me would help propagate/promote the existance of a "improved" WordPress.

Besides...why would you (or anyone) willingly use a software package that was less secure, stable, etc when there was an exact alternative which addressed those issues? :?

Perhaps the only people that knowingly would, would be you and arborint just for the sake of spiting me and proving me wrong that faster, safer, more stable doesn't always mean better. :P

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:13 am
by allspiritseve
PCSpectra wrote:It would be a hard sell...but I read plenty of blogs where people who feel just like me would help propagate/promote the existance of a "improved" WordPress.

Besides...why would you (or anyone) willingly use a software package that was less secure, stable, etc when there was an exact alternative which addressed those issues? :?

Perhaps the only people that knowingly would, would be you and arborint just for the sake of spiting me and proving me wrong that faster, safer, more stable doesn't always mean better. :P
Isn't WordPress open source? Why don't you start contributing and fixing all those bugs, instead of writing a new version from scratch?

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:14 am
by josh
PCSpectra wrote:It would be a hard sell...but I read plenty of blogs where people who feel just like me would help propagate/promote the existance of a "improved" WordPress.
I'm not denying the market exists, I'm sure someone very ambitious like yourself will come along and swipe up their market share if they don't continue innovating.
PCSpectra wrote:Besides...why would you (or anyone) willingly use a software package that was less secure, stable, etc when there was an exact alternative which addressed those issues? :?
Like windows, or ummm internet explorer with mass market share, tons of bugs, no stability, very expensive, tons of exact alternatives... point proven.
PCSpectra wrote:Perhaps the only people that knowingly would, would be you and arborint just for the sake of spiting me and proving me wrong that faster, safer, more stable doesn't always mean better. :P
No spite here bro, just debate
allspiritseve wrote:Isn't WordPress open source? Why don't you start contributing and fixing all those bugs, instead of writing a new version from scratch?
Too risky of a refactor IMO, theres no tests, and he'd likely be implementing completely different interfaces, using vastly different paradigms and probably using a framework. I doubt wordpress would let him just come in and turn up that much dust that quickly :lol: might as well fork it

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:22 am
by alex.barylski
Isn't WordPress open source? Why don't you start contributing and fixing all those bugs, instead of writing a new version from scratch?
I wouldn't be re-writing from scratch. LOL. However experience has taught me that it's sometimes easier to re-implement/design than refactor. In the case of WordPress it would be a lot more work to refactor than to just re-implement much of the model logic.

If you look at the code you will see there is very little separation of model, view code and controller. Refactoring that code into MVC components would be a headache and a half. It's be easier to gut it and implement the models from scratch, copying WordPress business logic and removing the the model code from the application and replace it with appropriate calls to the model, step by step.
I'm not denying the market exists, I'm sure someone very ambitious like yourself will come along and swipe up their market share if they don't continue innovating.
It happens all the time. :)
Like windows, or ummm internet explorer with mass market share, tons of bugs, no stability, very expensive, tons of exact alternatives... point proven.
Windows is a bad example. The application would need to be 100% backwards compatible with WordPress...that is the interface, database schema, etc. Only the core code would be improved to reduce overhead, heacahes, etc. Upgrading would be like transitioning from Windows XP Home to Windows XP Pro not Windows to Ubuntu. Even a seasoned expert would have transition troubles going from Windows to Ubuntu.

Windows has the major advantage of having far more applications which are designed solely for Windows and most end users are not proficient enough to use a VM or setup WINE. Plus there is little tangible evidence that supports the fact Windows is less secure than Linux. Windows has the disadvntage of being far more popular and thus far more attacks are likely. As a long time Windows user I can confidently state, I have never had a virus, my computer rarely crashes (never since XP) and IE is significantly faster than FF, especially on Windows.

FF uses a C++ abstraction layer to cross compile on Linux, Windows, Mac, etc. Not to mention M$ is notorious for using hidden API's to give their applications an "edge".

Besides FF interface is mostly XUL where as Internet Explorer uses native Windows controls which absolutely will render and respond faster than an HTML document. The rendering of a structured document is a slow, intensive process.

Any test you find comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges and can easily be swayed in either direction but technically speaking it's almost impossible for FF to run as swiftly as IE. Internet Explorer (some of it's components anyway) is crafted right into the OS desktop it's always resident in memory and therefore always has an advantage.

People don't switch to Ubuntu because it's not backwards compatible with Windows or some of the hardware. The day that happens I promise people will start switching. ;)

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:27 am
by josh
PCSpectra wrote:Windows has the major advantage of having far more applications
that is an advantage yes, but did they start out with applications written for their platform? My point was merely that its not simple to swipe up market share. Let's take a look at mac compared to linux for example. I would say mac OS is better designed then windows, yet windows still prevails. How long has mac been along to swipe up that other 85%? A while.
PCSpectra wrote:People don't switch to Ubuntu because it's not backwards compatible with Windows
what about WINE? 20% of people that bought linux laptops returned them, if the thing comes preloaded to be compatible with the hardware something else is causing the high return rates. Ease of use perhaps?
PCSpectra wrote:most end users are not proficient enough to use a VM or setup WINE
This goes back to ease of use, a client context, not a developer one

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:39 am
by Eran
My point was merely that its not simple to swipe up market share
In this respect, web applications have shown repeatedly that the web is the home of the underdog. Think what google has achieved in relatively short time against alta-vista, yahoo and the rest. See what facebook pulled against MySpace. And the list goes on and on.

The development time of web application is small, the exposure is high, all it takes is some marketing genius and a good enough product to change a market completely.

By the way, if we are talking reasons for the success of software products, marketing and timing are way up there before design, features, user experience and what have you.

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:47 am
by josh
pytrin wrote: Think what google has achieved in relatively short time against alta-vista, yahoo and the rest.
Not saying it's not possible, its easier on the web then any other medium. But think of how many companies failed before Google. People have been organizing information for 20,000 years.
pytrin wrote: By the way, if we are talking reasons for the success of software products, marketing and timing are way up there before design, features, user experience and what have you.
Exactly my point. Above marketing would be user speculation aka hype. This is evident in mac OS and thousands of other successful companies, its the cornerstone of the web 2.0 fad.

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:32 pm
by Syntac
If a product is terrible, it'll fail no matter how much hype it has. The consumer has to want to use it.

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:47 pm
by josh
Syntac wrote:If a product is terrible, it'll fail no matter how much hype it has. The consumer has to want to use it.
what about the pet rock? again terrible is subjective :wink: the only metric I am going off of is how the TAM feels emotionally about the product. In that sense a user can want to use a terrible product, they just have to have the emotionall connection to the product associated by other means such as branding and repetition, which is the essence of viral marketing aka hype. Plenty of "terrible" websites bring in tons of ad revenue

Re: spaghetti to mvc

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:49 pm
by Syntac
I can't help it if people do stupid stuff like buy a rock and call it a pet. :D