Forum Theme Contest: Find a new theme!

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Roja
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Post by Roja »

Ambush Commander wrote:
As the old saying goes "don't fix want ain't broke".

The site as it now with subSilver is fine.
Actually, it is broken. See this: viewtopic.php?t=34282
Thats not the theme, or the forum thats broken: thats one specific BBcode feature (one added here, specific to this site, notably).

Its also only an impact on IE on Mac - a product that has been discontinued. Its a very small % of the users here, and most that are affected can use Safari instead - which works fine.

But sure, if someone has a suggestion about how to fix the problem on that <1% browser-share, outdated, end-of-life'd browser, why not add that fix in? :)
Ambush Commander wrote: I'd say stick with PHPBB, the open source solution.
I'll go further - I wouldn't visit here if it was IPB. There are other php forums running on it, and its *ugly*. Its not nearly as easy to navigate, reply, or use. Its slower in my experience, its not opensource, and we'd be helping to increase marketshare for a commercial product.. why line their pockets when we can work together to improve a community product?
Ambush Commander wrote: True. Personally, I think our first priority should be getting the site's skin to validate and to work in Macintoshes
I do hope my comments above are taken as humor - I did intend them as such. I do support making the php tags work on IE on Mac, but saying it should be a first priority is a little odd.. its really a rather small part of the readership that is on a Mac, and can't use Safari.

Validation, however, is 100% on my top list.. I'm all about helping with a valid version of SubSilver. It would be of use to TONS of people, and tons of sites.
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Ambush Commander
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Post by Ambush Commander »

Thats not the theme, or the forum thats broken: thats one specific BBcode feature (one added here, specific to this site, notably).

Its also only an impact on IE on Mac - a product that has been discontinued. Its a very small % of the users here, and most that are affected can use Safari instead - which works fine.

But sure, if someone has a suggestion about how to fix the problem on that <1% browser-share, outdated, end-of-life'd browser, why not add that fix in?
Ah... I see. Didn't realize how low of a marketshare the browser was.

You know, I just realized something. The default skin uses... tables. Add that to validation.
Roja
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Post by Roja »

Ambush Commander wrote: Ah... I see. Didn't realize how low of a marketshare the browser was.

You know, I just realized something. The default skin uses... tables. Add that to validation.
To be honest, I think we could finish validation in a few weeks, while replacing the tables layout would probably take months.

I have no problem with the templates using tables, as long as its valid code.
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Ambush Commander
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Post by Ambush Commander »

To be honest, I think we could finish validation in a few weeks, while replacing the tables layout would probably take months.

I have no problem with the templates using tables, as long as its valid code.
Definitely. A start would be to replace HTML 4.1 declaration with an XHTML 1.0 declaration (these people are using <link ... />).

And about table layouts, now's not the place to argue about the problems with table layouts. However, when you use tables for non tabular data, you lose the context that HTML is supposed to give information.

I'd say, if we change the skin, we should favor non-table layouts. Revamping the current one so it works totally as an HTML + CSS and looks the same probably is wishful thinking given the current state of CSS implementation.
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Post by Roja »

Ambush Commander wrote: Definitely. A start would be to replace HTML 4.1 declaration with an XHTML 1.0 declaration (these people are using <link ... />).
Doing so would require changing more than just the templates - we'd have to modify phpbb's core code. Thats not trivial, and it would make it fairly hard on the devs here to stay patched to the current version of phpbb.

It would honestly be easier, having looked at the code, to focus on valid html-4.1 first, and then move up from there.
Ambush Commander wrote: And about table layouts, now's not the place to argue about the problems with table layouts. However, when you use tables for non tabular data, you lose the context that HTML is supposed to give information.
You are right - this isn't the place to argue about it. Lets focus on value for the average reader. Valid code that renders correctly is going to be more valuable (and easier to implement!) than rewriting the entire layout using no tables.
Ambush Commander wrote:I'd say, if we change the skin, we should favor non-table layouts. Revamping the current one so it works totally as an HTML + CSS and looks the same probably is wishful thinking given the current state of CSS implementation.
Wishful thinking? There are already projects that have done just that over on phpbb.. of course, there are also projects that have come close to true xhtml, but they include mods to the core code.

Looking at the work people have already done isn't wishful thinking - its seeing the results of both attempts. No table layouts were a much more significant effort than html compliance work.

Of course, I will admit that I haven't seen any that did so for the original subsilver theme, which makes it a useful project to take on.

Lets make this easy on everyone, and get the most bang for the buck. Lets start a colloborative project, with the following goals, in order:

- Valid html
- Move to xhtml
- Move to table-less layouts

Each has benefits from the last one, and each allows us to move the quality of the board forward without taking on too much at once. There might be some duplication of effort, but at least we will have deliverables that actually benefit users along the way.
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Post by McGruff »

There are plans to revamp the forum software but it's going to be a long term project. Basically, I find phpBB to be unmaintainable. I'd rather pull out all my hair with pliers than delve into its murky depths. The code itself is torture for a test-infected, OOP mindset. Frequent security updates are a bit of a pain if you have any custom mods. The usual integration problems are holding back development of phpdn - eg multiple log-ins were required when we made an abortive start on a phpdn Wiki.

So, rather than waste time on that my efforts are aimed at writing a whole new forum based on code which is easily expandable any way we want to take it. It'll all be open source.

It's going to take a while though. First I've got a pile of work to get through which will take me into the autumn. Hopefully then I'll have enough free time to make some real progress.

In the meantime I'll see if we can fix the above problem. I can't test on macs myself but maybe one of the other admins can.
Roja
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Post by Roja »

McGruff wrote: In the meantime I'll see if we can fix the above problem. I can't test on macs myself but maybe one of the other admins can.
There is definitely more than a few other sites using phpbb that would benefit from a subsilver theme that is html compliant, so I will still tackle it along with any that want to help.

Do the mods have any objection to us starting a new thread to discuss it and collaborate on fixes?

I'm just having a hard time figuring out which category to fit it in.. Code?
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Post by McGruff »

Yeah code, or suggestions. Thanks for offering to help.
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Ambush Commander
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Post by Ambush Commander »

Doing so would require changing more than just the templates - we'd have to modify phpbb's core code. Thats not trivial, and it would make it fairly hard on the devs here to stay patched to the current version of phpbb.

It would honestly be easier, having looked at the code, to focus on valid html-4.1 first, and then move up from there.
I suspect that making it valid HTML 4.1 would also require core changes.
Wishful thinking? There are already projects that have done just that over on phpbb.. of course, there are also projects that have come close to true xhtml, but they include mods to the core code.

Looking at the work people have already done isn't wishful thinking - its seeing the results of both attempts. No table layouts were a much more significant effort than html compliance work.

Of course, I will admit that I haven't seen any that did so for the original subsilver theme, which makes it a useful project to take on.
I think you misunderstood me but then got my point (sortof). I'm saying that if we were to try to do that for the subsilver theme and try to make it exactly the same way it is now (just without tables) it would be impossible. Transferring over to table-less layouts probably would require some asthetic changes, and some tricky column CSS hacks.
Lets make this easy on everyone, and get the most bang for the buck. Lets start a colloborative project, with the following goals, in order:

- Valid html
- Move to xhtml
- Move to table-less layouts

Each has benefits from the last one, and each allows us to move the quality of the board forward without taking on too much at once. There might be some duplication of effort, but at least we will have deliverables that actually benefit users along the way.
Sounds good to me. I just hope PHPBB's seperation of presentation logic from work logic is good enough to let us manage everything from the templates.
There are plans to revamp the forum software but it's going to be a long term project. Basically, I find phpBB to be unmaintainable. I'd rather pull out all my hair with pliers than delve into its murky depths. The code itself is torture for a test-infected, OOP mindset. Frequent security updates are a bit of a pain if you have any custom mods. The usual integration problems are holding back development of phpdn - eg multiple log-ins were required when we made an abortive start on a phpdn Wiki.

So, rather than waste time on that my efforts are aimed at writing a whole new forum based on code which is easily expandable any way we want to take it. It'll all be open source.

It's going to take a while though. First I've got a pile of work to get through which will take me into the autumn. Hopefully then I'll have enough free time to make some real progress.
The biggest progress is made in little steps, I think. I'm sure we'd all like an afternoon where you'd be completely free of all responsibilities and would just get down to some hard coding. Unfortunantely, that rarely happens. ;)

About starting a new open source forum project, I'm a bit wary (because, after all, there's lots of experts who will tell you scrapping and then rewriting a program calls for disaster). But hey, maybe it's possible. We might even get another big contender in the open-sourced forum arena. :D
In the meantime I'll see if we can fix the above problem. I can't test on macs myself but maybe one of the other admins can.
That's probably a big problem. A quick fix towards our goal of HTML 4.1 compatibility, however, would be to remove the trailing slashes from the <br>s. XHTML requires them, but they're wrong in HTML.
There is definitely more than a few other sites using phpbb that would benefit from a subsilver theme that is html compliant, so I will still tackle it along with any that want to help.

Do the mods have any objection to us starting a new thread to discuss it and collaborate on fixes?

I'm just having a hard time figuring out which category to fit it in.. Code?
Unlikely. Besides, it'd probably get buried. Probably Suggestions. Maybe General Discussion.

Er McGruff... you seem to have doubleposted (being admin and all, I bet you could delete the offending post).
enttymaul
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Post by enttymaul »

i dont really understand but... yeah thats cool!
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nickman013
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Post by nickman013 »

Sorry to bring back this thread from the dead. (it ryhmes)

But I tried to change the theme in my profile, and nothing changed at all.

Are you guys adding new themes at all ?

Thanks!
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Chris Corbyn
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Post by Chris Corbyn »

nickman013 wrote:Sorry to bring back this thread from the dead. (it ryhmes)

But I tried to change the theme in my profile, and nothing changed at all.

Are you guys adding new themes at all ?

Thanks!
You can't currently sety your own themes... we've disabled that for now. Along with the addition of a few new phpBB mods we have plans to add a new theme, with a slight twist (as a user option only) but we shall reveal more details of this shortly ;)
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neophyte
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Post by neophyte »

Cool!
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