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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:12 am
by feyd
my contracts specifically only allow so much feature creep.. after a certain stage there are no more feature additions without extra payment for those additions, which requires extending the deadline (or a whole lot more pay), along with increasing the testing cycle.
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:16 am
by Todd_Z
How do you account for feature add on in metrics? And testing?
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:25 am
by feyd
each addition requires its own test units, along with confirmations from an active user. The cycle is typically increased proportionally to the amount of interaction it performs since I try to write quite extensive tests to make sure it's right before I let a tester play with it. However, the testers are really good at hunting down really obscure issues.. They make my life so much easier, yet painful at times

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:27 am
by Todd_Z
feyd wrote:
my contracts specifically only allow so much feature creep
How does it do this?
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:30 am
by feyd
I give them an alotment of how many features they can add, based on my guess at the probability of feature-to-pain ratio involved. If they want to stay on budget, they will have to pair their feature add list down to that number or production stops on their project without delivery of anything.
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:08 am
by onion2k
My hourly rate is well over $1000.
I only work for about 3 hours a month inspite of being in the office 9 to 5.
Noone tell my boss, ok?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:34 am
by Roja
Todd_Z wrote:which bothers me because I keep close communication with webmasters during the process and they are often adding features
A better phrasing might be: I keep getting scope creep because I don't make my contracts clear enough.
A good contract spells out *exact* deliverables, with extreme detail, so that the client can't simply add a million features in. "Admin panel" isn't nearly sufficient detail. Four paragraphs defining the features needed to fulfill the goal of "Admin panel", is much more likely to be creep-proof.
Good contracts are worth their weight in gold. Many people think that if you spend too long negotiating, you'll lose the customer. In reality, you will ensure you can get paid for the work, show the client that you care about their
real goals, and most importantly, will cover both their end and your end from a disagreement that will upset both of you in the long run. As an added bonus, it will make your time more efficient, so you'll get more customers - not less.
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:37 am
by feyd
yeah.. my final contracts get quite large (30+ pages) pretty regularly with all the details. The technical document I write tends to be a mutliple of that size. Easily 100+ pages for it alone.
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:02 pm
by Roja
Todd_Z wrote:feyd wrote:
my contracts specifically only allow so much feature creep
How does it do this?
It comes down to negotiating tactics.
Me, I start with a clear statement: My hourly rate is $60 per hour. Thats non-negotiable. I get them to explain that they understand that, and with that, we have the first point done.
Next, I ask them to define their requirements. Usually, they'll kick out a response of 3-5 "bullet items", that are far too nebulous. Then we will negotiate the details of each until each item is at least a paragraph worth of detail. Its actually much easier over the phone, or via IM, but it doesn't take too long.
Then once we have that, I put time estimates around each
summary, like so:
- Implement sha256 hashing for password storage across the application : 2 hours labor ($120)
- Revamp HTML to be XHTML compliant, while keeping existing design: 4 hours labor ($240)
That way, it becomes a menu, like at a restaurant. They can't argue with the price per hour (that was the first point we agreed on), and they can't argue with the time estimate (we already discussed that when we did the details). So all they can do is say "Yes or no" to each item.
Lets them see where their money is going, and why, and lets them choose what matters.
The detail is there, specifying the full extent of what changes need to be made.
Leaves little room for long-term scope creep, disappointment, or arguing.
(As an added benefit, you learn VERY quickly how to estimate things using this system, because if you go over on time to implement, it costs you!).
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:17 am
by d3ad1ysp0rk
jshpro2 wrote:I get $20 / hour subcontracting work from a local web design company and I'm still in high school so I would consider that very good. When I graduate in a few months, and have the zend certification my rates are going to $30-$35.
Depending on your experience, you could be doing better. I'm 17 (going into senior year), and my latest big project took me about 20 hours (this includes talking to my boss and programming), and I was paid $1,500 for it. That works out to $75 an hour. A small addition to the that project (a site actually), was a 2 hour job and I was paid $200 for it.
Now, I've been at this forum since the fall of '03, but not all of that time has gone into learning PHP (with homework and other work at my real job, I got bogged down), but I'm still able to charge that much, because I can get it done, right, and the way they want it.
I also am pretty flexible about changing features, especially if it was a misunderstanding, my clients appreciate that a lot. I won't just give away my time (like you can see with that small addition to the site), but I won't haggle them about one small thing.
Anyways, as long as you think you have the necessary skills, you just need to find someone who needs someone like you, and they'll pay well, as long as you deliver.
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:13 pm
by Todd_Z
Wow, I had no idea contracts took that long to write. I figured it was a simple 1-2 page outline of the site. Well anyways - do you guys all have graphic design skills to backup your php skills or how does it work? Do you work with a web designer?
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:25 pm
by feyd
I've done both, however I usually end up doing the graphics work. Not necessarily due to incompetence on the artist's part, it's mostly due to lack of understanding restrictions placed on the web about color and light and a few other things.
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:26 am
by crazycaddy
£6 an hour, Under 16, no qualifications

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:07 pm
by raghavan20
I get 8 pounds per hour. I am doing my masters, have worked almost a year on asp and php. think, its reasonable for a graduate with not so great experience and not being in London.
I think in London, the rate is close to 25+pounds per hour and can increase depending on experience.
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:57 pm
by onion2k
raghavan20 wrote:I think in London, the rate is close to 25+pounds per hour and can increase depending on experience.
That'd put web developers in London on approx £50k. That might have been true during the dot.com bubble, but these days high twenties is more normal.