Annoying Salary Question...

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feyd
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Post by feyd »

Considering I didn't work on databases at the time, it wasn't an issue. :lol: I worked a night shift, writing code and junk for the people in the morning. I get a list of fixes to make, do them that night. Repeat.

I'm just illustrating that it can be done. I was in the school's computer lab for about 4 of the 9 hours in school I did a day. ;)
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Todd_Z
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Post by Todd_Z »

Ironically the situation is quite the opposite onion, thats the great thing about web dev - it doesn't matter your age or anything, just the work you can put out. They had a bunch of interviews, and I was the best, independent of my age.

My company takes web dev very seriously, and as a result, I got my own laptop, my own desktop, and the me and the CTO share our own newly built office.

We are soon to launch 50 vertical websites and the entire business infrastructure is structured around the online admin panel that I created.

But I can understand why you would be skeptical about a 17 year old having that kind of responsibility.
darryladie
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Post by darryladie »

I am 18 and I have been doing web design for 18 months. I am still in college but still work 30 hours a week on top of college and in the commercial work I am doing at the moment I am look at about equivalent to $25/ hour. That's for XHTML, CSS and WAI admittedly though not PHP.

While I would agree that you are unlikely to get big business contracts being handed over to youngsters, I do not think you can discount their abilities or their experience just because they are doing it part-time. If I build 10 websites in 18 months part time, does it mean that I am less useful than someone who's 23 and done 10 websites full time in the same period (leaving out the fact they have finished college)?

Darryl
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onion2k
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Post by onion2k »

darryladie wrote:If I build 10 websites in 18 months part time, does it mean that I am less useful than someone who's 23 and done 10 websites full time in the same period (leaving out the fact they have finished college)?
Stop measuring work in "Number of websites". How can you compare one site to another without defining some parametres? I've been working on one site on and off for nearly six YEARS .. does that mean I'm a dreadful coder who makes things really slowly*? No.. it's a just a massive site.



* I am, but that's not the point. ;)
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

Part of the challenge, specifically in tech-heavy areas, is the low priority placed on web development services as a full-time value add to the company. A lot of companies can hire a contractor for a term to do what they need without hiring someone full time to do regular web work. $20 per hour for a contractor is a heck of a lot less that $20 for a full time regular employee (payroll taxes, benefits, 401(k), etc).

I would think that unless the company needs a web developer on staff to ensure the business runs, they are probably not going to invest in someone full time. Throw in the fact that you are 17 and likely going to college, and that when you are done going to college your potential earnings will be much higher, it sounds like your current company wants to get as much use out of you as they can while they have you at a lower rate than if you had just come out of college.

Keep your head up. When you develop based on your terms instead of a company's terms you can earn a lot more. That's, of course, if development is what you are really passionate about and what you want to do to secure earnings.
darryladie
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Post by darryladie »

onion2k wrote: Stop measuring work in "Number of websites". How can you compare one site to another without defining some parametres?
OK, but all I was merely trying to point out was I dont think it is fair to say that just because a project was completed on a part time basis doesnt make it any less valid on a CV than if it was done on a full-time basis.

I work nearly a full working week in addition to college, that shouldnt make me much less attractive to employers who are happy for people to work from home (or in my case on laptop at college!)

:lol:
Roja
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Post by Roja »

darryladie wrote:OK, but all I was merely trying to point out was I dont think it is fair to say that just because a project was completed on a part time basis doesnt make it any less valid on a CV than if it was done on a full-time basis.

I work nearly a full working week in addition to college, that shouldnt make me much less attractive to employers who are happy for people to work from home (or in my case on laptop at college!)

:lol:
The second statement qualifies the first - an important point.

Your claim (Part-time work should be just as valid as full-time work) needs qualification to be reasonable. Namely, whats the definition of *valid*? You specify the narrow field of employers who are happy to have telecommuters.

Here's a quick check - go to monster.com or dice.com and do a search for php, and then do a search for php telecommuting jobs. I'm seeing a better than 20 to 1 ratio against the telecommuting jobs. Definitely the minority.

A CV/Resume measures a number of things. It measures number of projects completed, but also complexity, importance, and impact. It shows your ability to complete a task, and manage time.

Unfortunately for you, it also shows the experience, and dedication to an employer. Those are things part-time telecommuting doesn't convey well in a resume. Worse, doing work while going to school can show a lack of focus or satisfaction. (It can also show that you have bigger goals, and the ability to multitask, but I'm focusing on the negative a bit).

Point is, a resume can be evaluated in many ways. Just having the right NAME on a resume can land you a job at some companies, sadly. As a result, the best you can say is that you HOPE that your fantastic designs, work, and experience are considered fairly. The more likely event is that you will be judged on criteria that you don't agree with, and that will devalue you.

A good friend helped me in my career by explaining interviews and resumes to me completely the opposite of what I thought they were. I thought it was a chance for you to prove to the company that you were worth being hired.

Thats all wrong. You are there to be convinced that THEY are the right company to work for. Having that attitude comes across as confident, self-assured, and most importantly - as qualified. If I interviewed Linus Torvalds, or Donald Trump, I wouldn't expect them to reassure me of their qualifications.

Quoting Swingers, "YOU ARE MONEY". You are the hot commodity, they want you. All they need is to understand that there is no one that would be a better choice. Its your job to help them understand why.

A resume only gets you in the door. The interview gets you the job.
darryladie
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Post by darryladie »

I agree, there is no doubt that I am at a disadvantage!

But I'm quite happy where I am for now, I know if I drop out of college then I will never earn as much as if I had finished my A-Levels, I have also been offered a place at Uni next year but I thinking seriously about whether to work for a year. I am sure I could get a full time job as a developer.

Seeing as we're vaguely on the subject, what's better 3 years commercial experience or a degree and £20,000 debt? :lol:
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Post by Roja »

darryladie wrote:Seeing as we're vaguely on the subject, what's better 3 years commercial experience or a degree and £20,000 debt? :lol:
Depends on the person hiring. Generally, I'd say the commercial experience. Of course, if you want to get into any decent levels of your career, without a degree, you'll have to fight tooth and nail to compete.
darryladie
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Post by darryladie »

OK also I am not doing Computer Science or Web or anything, I have been offered a place to do Business and Economics, will the fact I have a degree still count in my favour?
Roja
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Post by Roja »

darryladie wrote:OK also I am not doing Computer Science or Web or anything, I have been offered a place to do Business and Economics, will the fact I have a degree still count in my favour?
Absolutely.

Think of "Degree" as a checkbox question, not an essay. They just want to know that you did formal education.

The exception to this rule seems to be the American "Masters of Business Administration" (MBA). Its such a rigorous and difficult program, and most people that take it on have to do so while working. Thats doubly impressive.
d3ad1ysp0rk
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Post by d3ad1ysp0rk »

Wow, I really feel like crap now. I earn more than all but one of my friends (he's a Java dev), and I only make $10/hr programming PHP. Sure, I'm probably not as good as Todd or jshpro2, but I work pretty damn hard.

Also, Todd, do you go to Boston PHP meetups? Check it out: http://php.meetup.com/29/
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Post by Roja »

d3ad1ysp0rk wrote:Wow, I really feel like crap now. I earn more than all but one of my friends (he's a Java dev), and I only make $10/hr programming PHP. Sure, I'm probably not as good as Todd or jshpro2, but I work pretty damn hard.
Thats extremely low pay for a good quality programmer. I made more than that as an assistant network admin with little experience. That was almost ten years ago, and it was in a college town with no major IT businesses!

Harsh.
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

d3ad1ysp0rk wrote:Wow, I really feel like crap now. I earn more than all but one of my friends (he's a Java dev), and I only make $10/hr programming PHP. Sure, I'm probably not as good as Todd or jshpro2, but I work pretty damn hard.
$10 per hour coding PHP? That is robbery. Hell, I didn't make that little when I was supervising the developmentally disabled. How can anyone be expected to live off of that? (I know that last question has a lot of social and political ramifications, but I am just venting a little).

I have seen some Silicon Valley companies start PHP developers off as low as $17 an hour. But for the most part, out here, if you have more experience than just code (ie, Windows experience, server experience, network experience, knowledge of MS Office apps) you are quite a bit more marketable. I found some jobs out in SF and the SF Peninsula that were paying as much as $110K per year for LAMP developers with as little as 5 years work experience and a college degree as long as they met a few other administrative criteria.

Of course, cost of living out here is insane and $100K doesn't go nearly as far here as it would somewhere else, but $10/hour does seem a bit low regardless of locale.

(OK, I'm done ranting. It's off to the homestead to get trounced by all my kids...)
josh
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Post by josh »

$10 an hour is an insult d3ad1ysp0rk. One of my friends makes $15 working part-time updating HTML pages / inserting data into databases. You could easily do $15 or more by coding your own site with a good business model, I was pulling in almost $700 a month and hardly doing anything (of course since I hardly did anything my site died out pretty quickly, but the point is there are alternatives to working for $10/hr).. I would simply refuse to work for a penny under $15 regardless of experience level (If you don't at least know the language that's different, but in that case you'd be acting irresponsibly be trying to take up a job you cannot handle).

On a side note I know someone else who makes $10/hr coding perl, but he went into the job with only basic HTML experience, so ontop of the wages he's receiving training in the language.
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