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Annoying Salary Question...

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:29 pm
by Todd_Z
Am I underpaid at $20/hour:

- Designed an entire real estate infrastructure administrative panel
- Design / Maintain 5 Databases of listings,user information, etc.

- Created ~50 Websites
- Created a Picture Server with watermarking

The list goes on, but thats the basic junk

$20 = $40k/year

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:33 pm
by feyd
I don't see a question.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:38 pm
by Todd_Z
Am i underpaid?

I feel like for the work that I'm doing, its worth a lot more than $40k a year

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:51 pm
by feyd
There's a lot of variables that'd alter this, but you're a little bit low.

Variables that will affec the answer are:
your location
your experience level
your speed
are you a contractor or salaried?
your tax obligations
your burn rate
what coding you actually do
whether you interact with others outside programmers and other personnal

that's just the list off the top of my head.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:58 pm
by Todd_Z
Location: Boston MA
Experience: 3rd job in software -> about 5 years coding experience - no degree
Speed - pretty damn fast - limiting factor is my coworkers
Paid Hourly
1099 Tax Form
Burn Rate?? whats that
Coding -> lots of different stuff, involving emails, scripting, cronjobs, front ends, back ends, database admin

Interact with my boss who runs is the CTO of the company -> have to deal with the idiots who use my software and teach them and listen to their bitching.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:08 pm
by feyd
burn rate = the rate at which you burn through the money you are paid already. It's partly a personality check (spender or not) which affects whether pairing down your expenses is recommended or not. ;)

based on the information ... ~$30/hr is about where you should be. If you want me to break down where you get some bonuses and penalties, I can.. but it'll happen later today or this week when I get a bit more time.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:43 pm
by Todd_Z
That would be awesome, thanks so much feyd!

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:09 pm
by RobertGonzalez
So your developing AND teaching? In Boston, like here in Silicon Valley, it would seem that you should be earning more. Of course, if you are a 1099 I am assuming you are a contractor. Maybe you can set up your contract to be different or try to farm yourself out directly as a service provider. If you are being placed at the company you are developing for then there is a good chance the placement company is getting a large portion of what your company is paying for your services.

Also, something that should be made clear early on is that, as a developer, you develop applications and tools to make people's jobs better/easier/more efficient. Part of the development of the tools is documentation, but not necessarily instruction on use. That could easily be billed under it's own category and could command a higher rate.

I know right now in San Jose and the East Bay Area, PHP developer salaires are ranging all over the place, from $15 per hour to over $100K per year. From what I've gathered looking around the country, Boston is the East Coast Silicon Valley, so I would think your salaries over there should be somewhat comparable to ours over here.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:33 pm
by Todd_Z
Well I'm on a 1099, but its weird with my company because there is no middleman agency. I was hired directly by the company but they choose to use the 1099 form instead of a W2.

I don't really want to get into a different rate per hour depending on what I'm doing, I would just like to keep it simple.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:32 pm
by feyd
Okay, so what follows is my basic reasoning for the numbers I gave. Remember, I evaluated your rough salary based on your answers. It's nothing personal. :)

Todd_Z wrote:Boston MA
  • Boston, like New York and parts of the west coast has a fairly high cost of living. Not to the same extremes, but similar. So here, you get roughly a $5 bonus.

    Bonus: + $5
    Total: $25/hr
Todd_Z wrote:3rd job in software -> about 5 years coding experience
  • This is a mid range level. "You're" neither a major risk to the company, nor an immense benefit. So it gets about a $1.50 - $2 bonus.

    Bonus: + $2
    Total: $27/hr
Todd_Z wrote:no degree
  • This slaps in the face of experience to a lot of companies, sometimes less, sometimes more. Bottom line, it affects your earnings. This hurts more down the line for later advancement. $1 - $1.50 penalty.

    Penalty: - $1.50
    Total: $25.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:Speed - pretty damn fast - limiting factor is my coworkers
  • Fast turn around is sweet. Fast, error free turn around is even sweeter. $2 bonus.

    Bonus: + $2
    Total: $27.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:Paid Hourly
  • This can go either way, but if they do overtime, can be a nice little bonus. $1.50 bonus.

    Bonus: + $1.50
    Total: $29/hr
Todd_Z wrote:1099 Tax Form
  • This can bite you in the ass in the end, but doesn't have a real baring on what your pay rate should be. It does affect your burn rate however due to higher taxes, etc etc. However, to garner people for this, companies often shell out a bit more cash. $1.50 bonus.

    Bonus: + $1.50
    Total: $30.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:Burn Rate?? whats that
  • Ignored.

    No Change
    Total: $30.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:Coding -> lots of different stuff, involving emails, scripting, cronjobs, front ends, back ends, database admin
  • A jack of all trades can be good for general stuff, but you need a specialist for certain things. It's hard to judge on this, but overall, someone that can perform a lot of varying things is a good thing. $2 bonus.

    Bonus: + $2
    Total: $32.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:Interact with my boss who runs is the CTO of the company...
  • A standard affair, CTO of the company or not. No one gets a medal.

    No Change
    Total: $32.50/hr
Todd_Z wrote:...have to deal with the idiots who use my software and teach them and listen to their bitching.
  • This can hurt you big time, both in the long and short. Although your comment may be a bit of hyperbole, it is somewhat telling of your personality. This type just doesn't jive with upper management nor with customers (internal or external to the company.) "You" will get passed over for promotions and will likely be pushed into a more background kind of work. A gear in the works, if you will, not standing out more than any other, maybe even less so. $3 penalty.

    Penalty: - $3
    Total: $29.50/hr


Suggestions
  • Fix the personality conflict therefore becoming more approachable. Be proactive, be friendly. Doubly so in the face of "bitching" and other adverse work states.
  • Look into the company helping, or at least supporting going back to school to get a degree. If they don't, you should still pursue it. Since you're working hourly, they can't dictate when and where you show up work (at least in a lot of jurisdictions). I don't remember the specific laws in the Boston area, but I'd imagine they are similar. I'd suggest taking some business classes, writing and communication classes (programmers often have horrid skills here.) Maybe even go as far as going a more creative writing route, poetry or the school's journalism maybe.
I may come up with more later, but I think that's a start. I hope you found this constructive. :)

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:10 pm
by Todd_Z
Feyd - you're awesome.

Thanks so much - great insight and advice.

So now for the whole story:

I'm 17 and a senior in High School.
Planned BS in Electro-mechanical Engineering and an MBA
[Univ of Wisconsin @ Madison i think]

I was wondering what I should earn with a blind eye on my age/etc. So thats why i left it out til now.

I'm probably going to approach my boss with the next project that I complete.

Its a Small business - i'm the only web dev guy, but I have about 5 large scale projects going on right now.

Thanks again Feyd

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:30 pm
by josh
Todd_z, I'm in roughly the same boat as you.. similar experience.. 18 years old, making the same amount of money from the same company (still in highschool as well and I am also 1099'd). Personally I feel that I am slightly underpaid and I think my employer does as well (various hints that I've picked up). They've offered me a fulltime job when I graduate which means a chance to re-negotiate salary. Basically when I first started working for them they asked me what my rate was, the first thing i said was 20 and that's what I got, that means I could have gone higher... I guess next time I'll name a ridiculous rate and let them talk me down.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:42 am
by onion2k
Todd_Z wrote:I'm 17 and a senior in High School.
Planned BS in Electro-mechanical Engineering and an MBA
[Univ of Wisconsin @ Madison i think]

I was wondering what I should earn with a blind eye on my age/etc. So thats why i left it out til now.
Right .. the thing is though, you also missed out some other important information:

1. You don't have 5 years coding experience. Experience only counts if it's part of a professional role.
2. 3rd job in 5 years? You're counting a job you had when you were 12? :roll:
3. You can't be a full time employee if you're still in school.
4. If the web side of the business is entrusted to a 17 year old then it's not very high up in the company priorities.

I think $20/hour is the very most you're likely to get. The simple fact is that you're stuck there. I seriously doubt you could go and get a similar job at a different company given your circumstances. The only reason a company ever has to increase your wage is to stop you going elsewhere .. the company you're with probably doesn't have that incentive .. so the chance of you getting a raise is pretty much zero.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:54 am
by feyd
I started professionally at 15-16, full time too. Yes, I was still in school. No I didn't fail a single class. In fact, I was taking full honors in most.

It's possible to do, not easy in any form. But it does take a certain amount of flexibility in the parties involved to work.

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:14 am
by onion2k
feyd wrote:I started professionally at 15-16, full time too. Yes, I was still in school. No I didn't fail a single class. In fact, I was taking full honors in most.

It's possible to do, not easy in any form. But it does take a certain amount of flexibility in the parties involved to work.
Full time, in my opinion, means more than just the number of hours a week you put in. It's about being available whenever the business is operating . If a database were to crash, or a site went down, saying "sorry, I was in class" wouldn't cut it. Todd may well be putting in full time hours, but he hasn't been given the same level of responsibility as a full time employee. And in my opinion employees are paid based on their level of responsibility .. the more important you are, the more money you deserve.

That said, it's no reflection on Todd. I'm sure he's very capable as a web dev. It just says a great deal about the attitude of the company he works for. Their websites and databases aren't important to them.