What comes first, second, third & so on...
Moderator: General Moderators
<brain is tired - don't find the energy to formulate ideas well>
Well, it all depends on how you define "coder". If you see it as someone that simply translates pre-chewed solutions/thoughts to programming language... Then yes, you can consider it as a braindead operation. As soon as machines can read thoughts they are a better candidated for doing this type of work.
I would define a programmer as someone who is capable to translate user needs to solutions/thoughts.. And in a final phase translates these thoughts to actual programming language. Imho this programmer is the most suitable person to distribute the work
(tell a dba to provide a database schema that is capable to store and manipulate the required data and instruct the coder to glue the data in the db to a user-interface and the graphics designer would be responsible for the visualization.)
I would say it doesn't matter in which order you handle the problems (db/code/ui). To me it seems that you have an advantage if you can do them all at once (or let them do by different parties at the same time) because feedback and suggestions can be easier adopted by the solution.
Well, it all depends on how you define "coder". If you see it as someone that simply translates pre-chewed solutions/thoughts to programming language... Then yes, you can consider it as a braindead operation. As soon as machines can read thoughts they are a better candidated for doing this type of work.
I would define a programmer as someone who is capable to translate user needs to solutions/thoughts.. And in a final phase translates these thoughts to actual programming language. Imho this programmer is the most suitable person to distribute the work
I would say it doesn't matter in which order you handle the problems (db/code/ui). To me it seems that you have an advantage if you can do them all at once (or let them do by different parties at the same time) because feedback and suggestions can be easier adopted by the solution.
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
I heard it from a few people, web developers, recruiters, programmers etc.
Last year I hired my first programmers from Romania & they didn't ask me ONE question before I got the quote.
All I had were notes of what I wanted the DB to do & it wasn't even organized.
Unfortunately this started a HUGE problem b/c they didn't use common sense, make any suggestions or ask (well you know Michelle you may want this feature down the road) & let me decide if I want it or not or it should be put on the list for phase 2.
Then I started adding in things b/c I started to get a mental picture of what the application would do, could do etc.
I can't visualize ALL the features an application can do b4 I see the thing on my computer screen. How any programmer can expect that is beyond me, yet I was told it was all my fault that things went nuts & not just by him, by others that said I didn't have a complete outline in place b4 it started.
So, he started complaining, there were HUGE communication problems with him not following my instructions or even letting me know A would be done after he finished B & so on & it was hell for me b/c I need someone who knows how to communicate well.
So I told a few people the story & they told me I had to get a DB Designer. I even heard this years ago.
So is a DB Administrator the same thing as a DB Designer?
I don't want to put an ad out yet until I know what I'm supposed to be hiring for.
I would love to get an "all in one person", but I know that most people are good at only one thing & I've dealt with tons of people online who lie & say they can do everything under the sun & they can't. Not just in this, in every type of position.
I'd rather get 2-3 people who know their skill really really well then compromize.
Michelle
Last year I hired my first programmers from Romania & they didn't ask me ONE question before I got the quote.
All I had were notes of what I wanted the DB to do & it wasn't even organized.
Unfortunately this started a HUGE problem b/c they didn't use common sense, make any suggestions or ask (well you know Michelle you may want this feature down the road) & let me decide if I want it or not or it should be put on the list for phase 2.
Then I started adding in things b/c I started to get a mental picture of what the application would do, could do etc.
I can't visualize ALL the features an application can do b4 I see the thing on my computer screen. How any programmer can expect that is beyond me, yet I was told it was all my fault that things went nuts & not just by him, by others that said I didn't have a complete outline in place b4 it started.
So, he started complaining, there were HUGE communication problems with him not following my instructions or even letting me know A would be done after he finished B & so on & it was hell for me b/c I need someone who knows how to communicate well.
So I told a few people the story & they told me I had to get a DB Designer. I even heard this years ago.
So is a DB Administrator the same thing as a DB Designer?
I don't want to put an ad out yet until I know what I'm supposed to be hiring for.
I would love to get an "all in one person", but I know that most people are good at only one thing & I've dealt with tons of people online who lie & say they can do everything under the sun & they can't. Not just in this, in every type of position.
I'd rather get 2-3 people who know their skill really really well then compromize.
Michelle
pickle wrote:Who told you that? A DB designer?exoticpublishing wrote:I was told programmers are just coders & do what they are told & DB designers make it so the application is organized, no time is wasted going back & forth to add more features b/c everything is laid out from the onset.
Make a new topic in the 'Job Hunt' forum. Anyone interested will surely apply.
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
Well I didn't think my application was HUGE & yet I had 2 people give me quotes who told me it was HUGE. Of course they could have been BSing me.
It was also recommended that I find someone who can find me an OS piece or we purchase a piece & then tweak it from there to cut back on costs.
Once again I was told by a former IT recruiter the DB Designer would do that.
Michelle
It was also recommended that I find someone who can find me an OS piece or we purchase a piece & then tweak it from there to cut back on costs.
Once again I was told by a former IT recruiter the DB Designer would do that.
Michelle
feyd wrote:They are often the same person for small sites, studios, etc.
Programmer and Database "designer" are often the same person until you actually need a decent size team. Even then, it's rare (in my experience) that they are a different person unless you're dealing with very specialized databases or programming.
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
Ok, but I'm not talking just the UI of the DB, I'm talking the organization of what even has to be done code wise.
Then I had another person who had been in the IT industry for years tell me that I should find someone who can write such a good program that the pieces can be used later on for other applications b/c I have a few things I want to do that would be similar in nature.
I wanted that done last year & some guy said it couldn't be done.
But how do I know if the person is any good or not & can really do a structure that is flexible?
Thanks
Michelle
Then I had another person who had been in the IT industry for years tell me that I should find someone who can write such a good program that the pieces can be used later on for other applications b/c I have a few things I want to do that would be similar in nature.
I wanted that done last year & some guy said it couldn't be done.
But how do I know if the person is any good or not & can really do a structure that is flexible?
Thanks
Michelle
jshpro2 wrote:Database always has to come before or at the same time as code. UI can come in at any time really because if your programmer has a good design he will make it flexible enough to change at any time.
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
Ok, so what would I put in the hiring ad to hire someone to do the detailed site map?
When you say the programmer & designer are enough, are you talking website designer or DB designer?
You just told me you never heard of a DB designer b4. LOL, I'm confused now.
Like I said, I don't see this as being a large application. It's features are similar to a dating site, but not a dating site.
Michelle
When you say the programmer & designer are enough, are you talking website designer or DB designer?
You just told me you never heard of a DB designer b4. LOL, I'm confused now.
Like I said, I don't see this as being a large application. It's features are similar to a dating site, but not a dating site.
Michelle
arborint wrote:That's a good one: coders just do what they are told! Good luck with that...exoticpublishing wrote:Well that's not what I've been told in the past.
I was told programmers are just coders & do what they are told & DB designers make it so the application is organized, no time is wasted going back & forth to add more features b/c everything is laid out from the onset.
I would recommend starting with a design that includes a detailed site map and page layouts that everyone agrees on. That way you, the designers(s) and developer(s) have some idea of what they are building. As for "DB designers", I have really never heard of such a thing. There certainly are database specialists (DBAs) who will tune the database installation, table layout/relations and SQL queries -- but it is ususally for large projects that they are brought in up front. You can certainly have someone like that look over the database and suggest optimizations to the programmer (if you are having performance problems). For most small/medium web projects a good programmer and designer are enough.
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
See I could never come up w/ the visual beforehand.
I'd only be able to say what I want the thing to do & accomplish, then find someone who has extensive DB design skills to figure out how the customer (my customer, not me) will work with it.
So if you are saying the DB needs to be designed, then why are people confused when I say DB Designer?
Thanks Sheila
Michelle
1. write detailed specs
2. design database and UI based on specs (can be one or two people)
3. write code based on specs and incorporate the UI
Often its
1. design UI
2. infer specs from the design
3. design database
4. write code
5. add UI
I don't often get detailed specs. Just generalized specs and page samples from a designer.
Things go smoother with detailed specs, where everything is covered.[/quote]
I'd only be able to say what I want the thing to do & accomplish, then find someone who has extensive DB design skills to figure out how the customer (my customer, not me) will work with it.
So if you are saying the DB needs to be designed, then why are people confused when I say DB Designer?
Thanks Sheila
Michelle
Ideally the order would besheila wrote:
1. write detailed specs
2. design database and UI based on specs (can be one or two people)
3. write code based on specs and incorporate the UI
Often its
1. design UI
2. infer specs from the design
3. design database
4. write code
5. add UI
I don't often get detailed specs. Just generalized specs and page samples from a designer.
Things go smoother with detailed specs, where everything is covered.[/quote]
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
I agree, it should be a colaboration between me & the programmer. Working as a team b/c I know what I want & he/she knows how to implement it & SHOULD have enough experience that they can see problems that may crop up b4 they do b/c I'm seeing it only from my eyes, not the programmer's eyes.
Michelle
P.S. Of course I think anything I dream up should be doable if the person is really good
Michelle
P.S. Of course I think anything I dream up should be doable if the person is really good
Pimptastic wrote:As a Web developer/designer myself...just doing what someone told me, i wouldn't feel like i was doing my job properly. I am the expert, and people can tell me what they want, but i advise and come up with alternatives that people may not have thought about.
- John Cartwright
- Site Admin
- Posts: 11470
- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:10 am
- Location: Toronto
- Contact:
-
exoticpublishing
- Forum Commoner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm
- Location: Kingsviller, Ontario
Excuse me?
Each of my posts addresses someone's comment or question. This is how I post in all the MBs.
What seems to be the problem?
Michelle
Each of my posts addresses someone's comment or question. This is how I post in all the MBs.
What seems to be the problem?
Michelle
Jcart wrote:7 posts in a row? Please stop this now, and let me take this opportunity to introduce you to the EDIT button found at the top right corner of your post.
- John Cartwright
- Site Admin
- Posts: 11470
- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:10 am
- Location: Toronto
- Contact:
I understand this is how you typically reply on forums, but we encourage our users not to do this. So in the future would you kindly use the edit button? There is no need for 7 posts in a row.
You realize that when posting a message, scroll down a little and you can see all the posts made, so you don't have to go back and forth between pages to find quotes.
You realize that when posting a message, scroll down a little and you can see all the posts made, so you don't have to go back and forth between pages to find quotes.
The latest version of IPB automatically concatenates posts if a user posts twice in a row in a thread.Jcart wrote:I understand this is how you typically reply on forums, but we encourage our users not to do this. So in the future would you kindly use the edit button? There is no need for 7 posts in a row.
You realize that when posting a message, scroll down a little and you can see all the posts made, so you don't have to go back and forth between pages to find quotes.
Clever feature that is.
There is a reason that the feature was added - because its not a (totally) reasonable expectation for users to do it manually.onion2k wrote:The latest version of IPB automatically concatenates posts if a user posts twice in a row in a thread.Jcart wrote:I understand this is how you typically reply on forums, but we encourage our users not to do this. So in the future would you kindly use the edit button? There is no need for 7 posts in a row.
You realize that when posting a message, scroll down a little and you can see all the posts made, so you don't have to go back and forth between pages to find quotes.
Clever feature that is.
Personally, I deeply appreciate when people quote the specific portion of a message they are referring to - it gives context, meaning, and lets me see who said what. The poster in question was doing exactly that.
To quote multiple posts, from multiple people on PHPBB is a *pain in the neck*. Not only do you have to copy/paste the text, you also have to manually construct the quote tag, and get the name of the person speaking correct. Now, with a name like "Roja", thats not so bad, but with a name like a8734665, its a pain. And yes, we DO have users with funky names here.
When you multiply that times even 3 posts, its obnoxious to the point where you will most likely just choose not to bother.
By adding a feature that does it for you (concat'ing it), you get the much simpler quote/reply function, AND you get a single post with all the responses.
In a nutshell, I've done the multiple posts to multiple reply thing, and it is NOT very reasonable to expect someone to manually concat them together after the fact.
With that said, I also think its obnoxious in the vast majority of threads (and I am honestly not saying that is true in this thread) to reply to more than 2-3 posts in a short period of time. But some people don't have the ability to visit multiple times a day or a week, and have to batch their responses.
Which is why IPB added a feature that does it automatically - because there is a good reason for both the superior quote/reply, AND a single posted reply.