Getting people on board

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Theory?
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Getting people on board

Post by Theory? »

So I made a post in T&D and I was told to make a post here. Really I guess the right question to ask here would be, I've got this wonderful idea.

My company, a record label at heart, wants to change the direction to a provider of solutions for musicians, music fans, engineers, and producers. Basically it's lots of tools that allow musicians to collaborate in new ways, producers to better manage projects, and engineers to better manage archives and sessions etc.

If you're not an audio dude or a musician then a lot of that is pretty meaningless. The other side of it goes to the music FANS who is really the primary market for this whole product. Like I said, we're a record label at heart, but we're plum fed-up with the label model of today whereby record labels are these faceless passive entities that thrust music at people. Instead we'd like to shift our function to being more of an intermediary force that connects musicians to their fans in new and unique ways.

To sum it up, simply, we're trying to become the first ever Web 2.0, Open-Source record label. Our entire access front will be a web-based application that will (eventually) have client-based, offline (via sync), access to our services. Our source will be "closed" to a point, but we want to create some sort of SDK which will allow the user community to develop approved projects to enhance our site's usability, including new features, skins, etc. New modules for everyone to use.

I imagine some portions of the app would be ported to small, potentially self-contained versions which we would distribute GPL style for artists who aren't in our repertoire to utilize on their sites, but the complex functionality stays integral to us.

I've been doing lots of research into new technologies and such which has spurred many of these ideas. It's amazing what can happen in 5 years. Half of these ideas would've been impossible or really f'in difficult to do back when I first "got into" programming.

Either way, with this idea we've kinda set our sights way to high and we're starting to come down and realize we're going to need help and lots of it. The problem is getting people on board. It's a very niche product in the sense that I forsee difficulty for a developer who can't relate to the audience. I would assume this would apply to most situations, but therein lies the caveat. If this were something "technically oriented" as in something geeky, something programmers are used to, then this wouldn't be an issue, but I would imagine that a lot of our ideas would make little sense to someone who has no experience in the field.

Also I have no money. I would love nothing more than to pay people to help, but the best situation I could describe would be, let's all get together and knock this thing out one step at a time, and when it's done, it'll pay us back for sure.

I'm truly, honestly, ready to undertake this whole thing by myself, but waiting around and sitting on the idea while I hone my skills, while totally feasible, isn't ideal. We need this product, but we want it to be genuine.

It sounds a bit strange, but what I'd love more than anything is to write as much structure as possible, and present some sort of non-working visual prototype to a team of guys who are all on the same page, who can really get into this project and who want to see it to completion. After that, I'd pretty much spend as much time working with the team and pretty much just asking lots of questions and "learning" that way.

Eventually I'll get my skills up to par, but until then we need some way to get going on this idea now. We're just having trouble trying to figure out ways to find the right people and convince them to get on board as part of the team, rather than just a freelancer who wants money.

I know I said that this was a "question" and lo-and-behold, not a single question-mark in this entire long-winded post, but I hope the question is implied since I'm having trouble fleshing out an actual question.
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patrikG
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Re: Getting people on board

Post by patrikG »

Theory? wrote:Either way, with this idea we've kinda set our sights way to high and we're starting to come down and realize we're going to need help and lots of it. The problem is getting people on board. It's a very niche product in the sense that I forsee difficulty for a developer who can't relate to the audience. I would assume this would apply to most situations, but therein lies the caveat. If this were something "technically oriented" as in something geeky, something programmers are used to, then this wouldn't be an issue, but I would imagine that a lot of our ideas would make little sense to someone who has no experience in the field.
It sounds like an interesting idea, but I believe you need to take one step at a time.
Firstly, one way out of the development trap ("no money = no professional = no new product") is to start an open-source project for this and start a drum-roll for OS-developers with you being the Project Manager (and just that).
Then
- map out exactly what you want to achieve in detail
- break the goals you end up with into manageable tasks
- look for "synergy"-effects, i.e. tasks that share similar resources
- present it to your developers and ask them for feedback (rinse & repeat previous step & this one)
Theory? wrote:Also I have no money. I would love nothing more than to pay people to help, but the best situation I could describe would be, let's all get together and knock this thing out one step at a time, and when it's done, it'll pay us back for sure.
Don't mention that you intent to pay anyone back. It makes you look suspicious, because intentions change and no-one can assess your character from a post on a discussion board. If you're serious, offer them a printed contract about remuneration, signed.
Theory? wrote:It sounds a bit strange, but what I'd love more than anything is to write as much structure as possible, and present some sort of non-working visual prototype to a team of guys who are all on the same page, who can really get into this project and who want to see it to completion. After that, I'd pretty much spend as much time working with the team and pretty much just asking lots of questions and "learning" that way.
There you go, you're the project manager already.
Theory? wrote:Eventually I'll get my skills up to par, but until then we need some way to get going on this idea now. We're just having trouble trying to figure out ways to find the right people and convince them to get on board as part of the team, rather than just a freelancer who wants money.
Forget your getting your skills up, you don't have to and it would most likely be a negative influence on the development process. Staying passionately focused on managing the development of this will be a huge learning curve anyway. Stay the intelligent audience that asks "why" rather than "how" or you get bogged down in too much detail and will lose focus sooner or later.
I think your sentiments about mercenary vs. patriot (or freelancer vs. passionate developer) are noble, but you will have to let go of some of them at some point. Freelancers deliver a product for money, it is their chosen profession, competition is hard and customer satisfaction is key. Patriots are eager, but unprofessional and don't necessarily know about all the technical options. Either way - there are many ways towards a goal.
I suggest you consider making this an Open Source project, bear in mind thought that that means the product won't necessarily be unique to your organisation.
alex.barylski
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Post by alex.barylski »

Read your PM I sent you. :)

Cheers :)
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onion2k
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Re: Getting people on board

Post by onion2k »

Theory? wrote:Also I have no money. I would love nothing more than to pay people to help, but the best situation I could describe would be, let's all get together and knock this thing out one step at a time, and when it's done, it'll pay us back for sure.
Go and get some then. There's loads of investors out there who love nothing more than risking their piles of cash on the prospect of making a fortune on the next big thing. There's angel investors who'll just hand you money for an equity stake then sit back quietly, there's venture capitalists who'll hand you money and help out by providing experts to help run the business, there's government funding groups who'll hand out (small) sums of money with no requirement to give back any equity, hell ... there's banks out there who'll give you a loan if your business plan is sound.

The thing you need to realise is that everything is a risk. Asking people to give up their time and energy for a potential future reward is asking them to take on the risk themselves. Few people are in a position to do that. If you have a family and a mortgage it's just not possible. By borrowing money or selling equity you're taking on the risk so your employees don't have to (well, there's still a risk that it might not succeed, but at least their families won't starve).

If your first thought is "but I might fail and owe thousands of dollars to people!" then walk away from the idea right now because it's already failed if you're thinking like that.
Theory?
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Re: Getting people on board

Post by Theory? »

patrikG wrote:
Theory? wrote:Either way, with this idea we've kinda set our sights way to high and we're starting to come down and realize we're going to need help and lots of it. The problem is getting people on board. It's a very niche product in the sense that I forsee difficulty for a developer who can't relate to the audience. I would assume this would apply to most situations, but therein lies the caveat. If this were something "technically oriented" as in something geeky, something programmers are used to, then this wouldn't be an issue, but I would imagine that a lot of our ideas would make little sense to someone who has no experience in the field.
It sounds like an interesting idea, but I believe you need to take one step at a time.
Firstly, one way out of the development trap ("no money = no professional = no new product") is to start an open-source project for this and start a drum-roll for OS-developers with you being the Project Manager (and just that).
Then
- map out exactly what you want to achieve in detail
- break the goals you end up with into manageable tasks
- look for "synergy"-effects, i.e. tasks that share similar resources
- present it to your developers and ask them for feedback (rinse & repeat previous step & this one)
Theory? wrote:Also I have no money. I would love nothing more than to pay people to help, but the best situation I could describe would be, let's all get together and knock this thing out one step at a time, and when it's done, it'll pay us back for sure.
Don't mention that you intent to pay anyone back. It makes you look suspicious, because intentions change and no-one can assess your character from a post on a discussion board. If you're serious, offer them a printed contract about remuneration, signed.
Theory? wrote:It sounds a bit strange, but what I'd love more than anything is to write as much structure as possible, and present some sort of non-working visual prototype to a team of guys who are all on the same page, who can really get into this project and who want to see it to completion. After that, I'd pretty much spend as much time working with the team and pretty much just asking lots of questions and "learning" that way.
There you go, you're the project manager already.
Theory? wrote:Eventually I'll get my skills up to par, but until then we need some way to get going on this idea now. We're just having trouble trying to figure out ways to find the right people and convince them to get on board as part of the team, rather than just a freelancer who wants money.
Forget your getting your skills up, you don't have to and it would most likely be a negative influence on the development process. Staying passionately focused on managing the development of this will be a huge learning curve anyway. Stay the intelligent audience that asks "why" rather than "how" or you get bogged down in too much detail and will lose focus sooner or later.
I think your sentiments about mercenary vs. patriot (or freelancer vs. passionate developer) are noble, but you will have to let go of some of them at some point. Freelancers deliver a product for money, it is their chosen profession, competition is hard and customer satisfaction is key. Patriots are eager, but unprofessional and don't necessarily know about all the technical options. Either way - there are many ways towards a goal.
I suggest you consider making this an Open Source project, bear in mind thought that that means the product won't necessarily be unique to your organisation.
I would love to do Open-Source, but I fear several consequences, that being the reliability of an open-source team, the quality of code, and the timeliness in which the project would be completed. On top of that, some of the ideas we wish to implement MAY (we haven't really reasoned it out logistically) want to keep private if at all possible. I mentioned an SDK for users (the open-source community) to develop modules for the system, but I'm not so sure if I'd like the whole thing to be 100% open-source. We'll see though.

For the payment thing, that was just me being me. I understand how hard this stuff is and I would never in my right mind assume anyone but myself would do a scrape of it for free, so I'm just being honest. I'd LOVE to pay people, but again, I can't (as of yet). Again, more things I need to worry about.

Also, please don't take my comment to mean freelancers are disingenuous or not as good as anyone else, in fact in some cases I would imagine they'd be better, but just because of some concerns I have both legally, and otherwise really drive my desire to have a permanent team that would develop and maintain the core software as well as user-submitted modules (I imagine doing this system on a project approval basis). I would really love 4 or 5 guys who are totally committed to this project and are willing to, really, be an employee and sticking around for a bit. That's what I meant.

As for not learning to code, that won't happen. Aside from the fact that I'm a TOTAL control freak, I really do love programming, it's fascinating stuff to me. I'll continue to study everything I need to study and if I get my dream-team...well I'll still study, if not for the projects sake, then for my own, just to say I did, one more skill in the bag. I'll be a musician/audio guy/moron programmer. I'll stand on city corners shouting at people, saying I went to college for this sh!t.
onion2k wrote:
Theory? wrote:Also I have no money. I would love nothing more than to pay people to help, but the best situation I could describe would be, let's all get together and knock this thing out one step at a time, and when it's done, it'll pay us back for sure.
Go and get some then. There's loads of investors out there who love nothing more than risking their piles of cash on the prospect of making a fortune on the next big thing. There's angel investors who'll just hand you money for an equity stake then sit back quietly, there's venture capitalists who'll hand you money and help out by providing experts to help run the business, there's government funding groups who'll hand out (small) sums of money with no requirement to give back any equity, hell ... there's banks out there who'll give you a loan if your business plan is sound.

The thing you need to realise is that everything is a risk. Asking people to give up their time and energy for a potential future reward is asking them to take on the risk themselves. Few people are in a position to do that. If you have a family and a mortgage it's just not possible. By borrowing money or selling equity you're taking on the risk so your employees don't have to (well, there's still a risk that it might not succeed, but at least their families won't starve).

If your first thought is "but I might fail and owe thousands of dollars to people!" then walk away from the idea right now because it's already failed if you're thinking like that.
I don't fear failure until I've started something and as of yet nothings been started, just lots of talking and note-taking. We intend to seek capital, that's one of our FIRST goals. I also never put others at risk. I really don't expect people to work for free at all, which is the cause of more mild panic attacks because, again, I'm not really sure how I'm going to get this done just yet.

Thanks for all the advice. It's encouraging...to an extent.
alex.barylski
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Post by alex.barylski »

Greetings.

The source code would remain exclusively mine to control and moderate. I would be responsible for hiring local developers (no outsourcing to India where Ideas are leeched like crazy) and managing any changes/tweaks, etc. This is also an insurance policy on my behalf, to prevent you from saying "f*ck ya" my five years are up I want more than what your willing to offer. I've made my money and I can afford to hire developers, cya.

My framework uses (what i believe) some unique approaches to solving common architectural problems. I spent the last 6 months restructuring just the directory structure (no files or code). The ideas for making my job easier and maintenance easier and the system over-all more efficient are ideas I consider worth protecting. I believe they will let me crrack entire web sites (with unlimited interactivity) in drastically shorter periods than the way things are done now.

The point is, keeping my source as tight lipped as possible and not just the source but the over all architecture of it, is something I personally desire, perhaps one day I will change my mind.

Here is a lesson I have learned in open source and selling propritary software.

1) Open source projects can be a huge success, but proprietary ones are even bigger.
2) Propritary source projects do fail, but open source projects fail more frequently.

Money and security simply make things better - despite what *nix zealots might say with the Linux V.S Windows comparisons (apples to oranges really) If Microsoft dumbed down their OS it would be just as secure and realiable as Linux and likely better in terms of depedency managment, etc).

So, although I am not general against open source, I tend to use projects as a tool rather than a system. I use Windows but develop on a Linux box. I release some code as open source (various articles and sources available upon request) but for a complete application framework? Not anytime in the foreseeable future, sorry.

As for the SDK idea, I'm not sure what you had in mind, but allowing complete strangers to upload arbitrary code is asking for disaster. Unless the whole system was open source and people installed it on their own will and hosted exactly what you wish to host - there goes one of you greatest competitive advantages. Although source code is easier to create than an idea, it's much more difficult to complete or bring to fruition.

Most developers will have never "completely" finished a project in their lives - although software is never finished per se, many still do not ever reach the point at which they originally set out (suffering from burnout, change of interest, etc).

Now to address the 70/30 rule.

Consider Warren Buffet, as an investor, he provides funding to various businesses (all well established but under-performing) and the percentage he expects depends on many factors, but he is very well known for being a passive investor - meaning he says little to control the companies direction, just offering financing.

In my case, I am entering a venture which is not only underperforming, but it's not even established. So when Buffet purchases 7% share in Coca-Cola (he's gauranteed a massive ROI).

To get a loan from a bank, would cost you big and the risks are tremendous.

What i am offering would cost you about 3-4 developers salaries ($50000+/year) for about 1.5 to 2 years

50000 * 4 = $200,000 approximately. More like 2-3 developers at about $45000 and a project manager at $75000/year.

A $200,000 loan with a 25 year amortization period at 6% over five years would cost you $56,400. After 5 years your outstanding principal is still be something like $175,000 (thats a rough estimate). I do not have a amortization calculator handy, but that is how mortgages work(so I assume bank loans do too?). Also consider that constructing a business plan and convincing the bank manager to grant you a loan on zero capital for a non-existant business is next to impossible. Likewise, angel investors which everyone preach about, are just that, angels.

Good luck finding one and have even more fun convincing them your worthy of their money. :P

So, as you can see, my time invested (when done properly) is tremendous.

Do I plan on on actually doing the work of 4 developers? No. But this framework has been work in progress for well over 5 years so much of it is well understood and time tested. So I already have a HUGE advantage in that regard.

1 programmer, 4 years or 4 programmers in one year.

Some developers are better than others, at my current day I actively support 3 products where as most others support only one and in some instances share an application. I'm not the only one who does this, but it demonstrates ability I think.

So 70/30 is my way of being fair, considering what it is I have to invest. Unlike Warren:

1) I'm investing in a non-established, non-performing business
2) I'm not investing money BUT time

You can make more money with time, but you cannot make more time with money. So essentially I am bringing both to the table. Thus the unreasonably high percentage. The code is proprietary and will never be disclosed. That is simply the way it works. I plan on using this to my advantage in every way I can to ensure my own success in life.

As for your friend the designer, appearance is everything to me. I can't be enthusiastic about something that looks meh!!! We would both need to agree on a designer - first impressions are everything in this area. If your friend cuts the mustard with me, cool. But that doesn't change my 70/30 offering, unless you wish to split your 30% shares with him. If needed, we contract that work to him (50/50).

Anything less than 70% simply isn't worth my time (remember it's only for five years). Keeping the source proprietary ensures my position in the venture, if at anytime I feel you under achieve and my time is being wasted maintaining the system(s) I can pull the plug (not without first disscussing my concerns with you and your partner.) This is to entice you and you partner to work as hard as possible to make this a success and return the greatest ROI (making me my money back and profiting hopefully. Otherwise we could enter a five year agreement where I do everything technically and you and your friend sit back and relax until the 5 year term has expired and we re-negotiate percentages.

I tried this once before on a six month term and that is exactly what happened - no exceptions on my end, sorry. :)

Anyways, hopefully I've made my perspective and it's something you feel worth considering?

You have my MSN and other details, stay in touch. :)

Cheers :)
Theory?
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Post by Theory? »

I really do appreciate your thoughts. They're very insightful, I must say. Frankly, it places a lot of things in perspective for me.

However

It sounds like there's an unfortunate clash in our desires. While I admire that you've spent a lot of time on your framework, and I wish you the best of luck with it, I need something that I can watch like a hawk, that's just how I am. Ideally, I would love to design a proprietary framework for the vain of applications we intend to create. We have some very BIG ideas for further down the road that does involve some cleint-side programming, and will even likely involve going to 3rd party software developers (those that make popular music software, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Cakewalk, etc.) for their assistance. Those ideas are reserved for a time much further away from now, but they're there, and my ability to keep them in mind is what's driving these strange decisions so early on in the development stage.

Not all our applications are insanely complex, just very tightly integrated with each other, so a unique framework seems a bit more fitting, and on top of that we can maintain the framework as both a company and a community. Again, I wish you the best of luck with your framework, from the sounds of it you've really got something good on your shoulders. It's just that, while yes it may not be the most "sound" idea, I feel like what I have in mind is a better solution for what we're trying to accomplish, not just with this piece of software, but as a company in general.

As for this SDK I have in mind:
I intended to do it in a very structured manner, W3C style, whereby a proposal for a new feature-set or module is proposed, research and initial details of development necessities etc are all presented to the community and our in-house development team. Revisions are made to suit the system and avoid any security problems or conflicts and then the module is finalized and handed off to our dev. team, who double checks it, and then installs it.

This acts as a natural filtration system to inspire people to think of more globally useful functionality.

I imagine this "SDK" would provide some sort of virtual sandbox for people to work in, providing the API and all that junk so people can develop and test without actually doing any harm to our servers.

Another reason why I would need an on-board development team as well as a framework we have total control over.

Psychotic? Probably. Doomed? I don't think so.
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onion2k
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Post by onion2k »

Hockey wrote:this framework has been work in progress for well over 5 years so much of it is well understood and time tested.
You say you took 6 months to figure out the directory structure though, so how much of that 5 years was actually spent doing useful coding? Anyone can talk up a storm about their code. Unless you have a working demo site that uses it in a way people can see your code is worthless.
Theory? wrote:We have some very BIG ideas for further down the road that does involve some cleint-side programming, and will even likely involve going to 3rd party software developers (those that make popular music software, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Cakewalk, etc.) for their assistance.
Same comment to you. Anyone can talk up their ideas and make them sound grand and impressive. Ideas are nice, an idea is a starting point. I have 50 great ideas every day. The important thing to remember is this: ideas are worthless. Actions are what counts. Hard work, actual progress, and something tangible (be it a finished product, a business plan, a specification, anything really) .. that's what's worth the big bucks. Without that you have nothing.
alex.barylski
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Post by alex.barylski »

onion2k wrote:
Hockey wrote:this framework has been work in progress for well over 5 years so much of it is well understood and time tested.
You say you took 6 months to figure out the directory structure though, so how much of that 5 years was actually spent doing useful coding? Anyone can talk up a storm about their code. Unless you have a working demo site that uses it in a way people can see your code is worthless.
Theory? wrote:We have some very BIG ideas for further down the road that does involve some cleint-side programming, and will even likely involve going to 3rd party software developers (those that make popular music software, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Cakewalk, etc.) for their assistance.
Same comment to you. Anyone can talk up their ideas and make them sound grand and impressive. Ideas are nice, an idea is a starting point. I have 50 great ideas every day. The important thing to remember is this: ideas are worthless. Actions are what counts. Hard work, actual progress, and something tangible (be it a finished product, a business plan, a specification, anything really) .. that's what's worth the big bucks. Without that you have nothing.
Hehe. You don't read very well. ;)

I said I spent the last six months "restructing" the directory/source tree. Software, as you probably know, is always work in progress. The last several years have been spent studying existing frameworks in multiple languages, using them, learning the likes and dislikes and using that insight into improving my own.

The front controller has been re-implemented at least half a dozen times since it's inception. Change is inevitable but it makes things better.

BTW - I do have a "working" version - you just don't know about it because it's hosted locally on my dev server. ;)
Theory?
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Post by Theory? »

onion2k wrote:
Theory? wrote:We have some very BIG ideas for further down the road that does involve some cleint-side programming, and will even likely involve going to 3rd party software developers (those that make popular music software, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Cakewalk, etc.) for their assistance.
Same comment to you. Anyone can talk up their ideas and make them sound grand and impressive. Ideas are nice, an idea is a starting point. I have 50 great ideas every day. The important thing to remember is this: ideas are worthless. Actions are what counts. Hard work, actual progress, and something tangible (be it a finished product, a business plan, a specification, anything really) .. that's what's worth the big bucks. Without that you have nothing.
I'm plenty aware of that, but as the addage goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. I am acting upon this idea. The code is but just one aspect among many that I need to tackle. It's also the largest part and requires the most planning, so for the time being, I'm learning about code while taking care of everything else.
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onion2k
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Post by onion2k »

Hockey wrote:The front controller has been re-implemented at least half a dozen times since it's inception. Change is inevitable but it makes things better.
It worries me when people say that sort of thing. It says "This software had no planning and no design process". Change is not inevitable. Change arises from three possible situations:

1. A system is implemented without a design and found not to work.
2. A system is implemented with a design but the requirements are wrong and code has to be revisited.
3. A system is implemented, tested, used, and then improvements are made.

You're developing the system on your own so I imagine there wouldn't be a big change in the requirements before you're ready to go live, so it's not 2. You've not got live yet so 3 is out. That only leaves 1. You say that you reimplemented it 'at least half a dozen times', that means you kept hacking away at the code rather than taking a step back and actually thinking about the design of the system. What are the chances you've got it right now?

Until your code has been tested and is online in the real world somewhere I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Don't get me wrong, it might be brilliant .. I just wouldn't take your word for it.
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