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Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:36 pm
by jayshields
Kohana looks interesting, thanks.
One thing I forgot to mention is that this learning project is also intended to make me more employable - which is one of the reasons why ZF is a big favourite for the framework to learn. It doesn't seem that putting something like "Experience with Kohana" will be a selling point whereas "Experience with Zend Framework" would probably help - this might be because I assume Kohana or any other relatively new frameworks might disappear tomorrow whereas it appears ZF will be around forever.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:59 pm
by jaoudestudios
Zend Framework will definitely make you more employable over any of the others.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:06 am
by 3dfan
I support that ZF is much better than CakePHP I suggest to use only it!
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:01 am
by Turv
I've started learning Zend Framework in my spare time, Started reading the Zend Framework in Action book to find it's out of date, Took me ages to get an initial set up going as it seems to work differently in the current versiont than the version being used in the book.
I don't know what implications this has through the rest of the book with code being changed / outdated etc. We shall see
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:10 am
by jaoudestudios
Turv wrote:I've started learning Zend Framework in my spare time, Started reading the Zend Framework in Action book to find it's out of date, Took me ages to get an initial set up going as it seems to work differently in the current versiont than the version being used in the book.
I don't know what implications this has through the rest of the book with code being changed / outdated etc. We shall see
It is a very steep learning curve (I am still on it, hopefully nearing the top), but once things start clicking into place, you will notice the rapid development time - I am

Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:17 pm
by volomike
Here's my opinion on frameworks:
1. The type of gigs you get with onsite contracting or full-time work is very different from the gigs you'll get when you put out an ad as a freelancer. That's just my experience, anyway. So, you'll want to identify which one of these you'll become, and then look in that market for what people are using. As a Freelancer, I see mostly CI (CodeIgniter) these days, but last year it seemed like it was ZF. As a contractor onsite, I see ZF is the only interest I see in the available jobs -- that is, unless they don't care at all which MVC you use.
2. However, that said, there's also the line of thinking of rolling your own minimalist MVC and running with that, as long as you think it might be fairly intuitive for the next developer. And by that, I mean throwing in a front controller and page controllers, models, and views, and then libraries for common stuff like captcha, crypt, filter, mail, XML, file upload, image upload, image resize/crop, cookies, sessions, dates, members (logins, registrations, password mgmt), member settings, a class to extend PDO, an ActiveRecord class, and PDF. And yet stay strictly minimalist and intuitive in the logic. Whatever you do, follow the KISS method and "be obvious" on choices you make in this thing. I actually prefer this angle on gigs where possible. I have a minimalist MVC that does all this, and then I build upon that on each gig. There's no learning curve for me, at least. Tee hee.
3. And then even though the market may be leaning towards ZF or CI, you'll see a lot of people with completely valid, serious criticism of those platforms, especially on this website, and so you may want to shop around for what guys on this website laud as being the best frameworks. I see many guys talking about Cake and Symfony, and some talking about a new thing called Skeleton. Skeleton is being worked on here on this website among guys. And if you're freelancer instead of an onsite contractor, you might have more freedom in what platform choice you settle on.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:43 pm
by alex.barylski
Mike, good points, but I have to argue against using a custom minimalist framework...
I have what I believe are good arguments for reasons Zend, Symphony, CakePHP, CodeIgnitor, etc are not the "best". However, what they all have, that my own framework does not, is documentation and a community of developers.
I think it's best every developer sticks with a known, documentated framework for commercial projects which you do not own (contract work, etc). There is little more annoying than joining a project only to find out the docs are non-existant and the original developer is long gone.
I hate Zend, but I use it in the enterprise because it just makes more sense than my significantly faster, simpler framework.

Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:18 pm
by volomike
PCSpectra wrote:I have to argue against using a custom minimalist framework...
I understand the opposition. But let me put it this way...
I'd rather show up on a gig and find any MVC framework was in place than to find a lack of one. Guess how many gigs I've inherited where there was a lack of any MVC framework? Too many. But if it was a custom MVC, and the custom MVC framework was minimalist and just flat-out obvious (and my latest one is), then I'd probably be okay with it. Of course, ZF seems like the running common denominator on contractor gigs, and CI looks like the running common denominator on freelance gigs, based on what I see in the market here in 2009.
And what do I mean by obvious in my custom MVC framework? Here are some things:
- gives you a front controller, page controllers, models, and views
- uses CI-style URLs of
http://site.com/domain-object/task/whatever/whatever, and that translates to "controllers/DomainObject/Task.php" and the whatever/whatever can still be parsed
- the front-controller is minimal and almost needs no editing -- create a folder and file like "EmployeeMembers/Register.php" under the controllers folder, and it's immediately addressable as "
http://site.com/employee-members/register/" with no extra front controller coding.
- uses a bootstrap.php to load basic stuff to interact with the framework so that you can get started right away
- views are implemented with
CCAPS but can be replaced easily with Smarty or whatever
- besides simple classes and class methods for models, views, and controllers -- contains common classes like XML, Dates, Upload, Crypt, Cookies, Filter, DB, Crawl (Curl wrapper), Captcha, ConfigSettings, Member, and MemberSettings
- the DB class is basically a wrapper around PDO with the addition of an ActiveRecord class and some common tools like pagination
- most of the classes are minimalist -- giving you only a handful of class methods for what you need at a minimum, so no large learning curve
- all classes can be used or ignored
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:03 pm
by alex.barylski
I would rather some attempt at MVC than old school PHP scripts with everything packed into them -- no dought.
Thats a fare/fair argument...but it's not OK to assume yours is better just because it's what you know.
I'll give you an example...every project I have worked on in the last 10 years the previous developers (myself included at one time or another) implemented what they considered to be a 'framework'. The problem is, everyone's idea is wildly different. Many don't even provide any form of architecture or structure, so I have many times been confused by the term `framework`when in reality it`s usually just a library of code cobbled togather over time, as opposed to a methodically or carefully thought out source tree.
Not all frameworks are created equal...at least with Zend I know there is a community of developers beind it (ideally) promoting best practices and dropping bad ones. Of course that is not to say ZG doesn`t have it`s hiccups (it`s way to complex in implementation for my personal tastes) but at least they are clearly documented and I know there has been `some`fore-thought into it`s design.
I can deal with weird controller-view depdendencies so long as it`s clearly documented and-or understood...bad design is made worse by no documentation -- reading confusing, complex code trying to figure s*it out when a client is demanding results ASAP is frustrating as I am sure many of us are aware...
For that reason, commercially-professionally I use ZF...personally when I know only I will be looking at te source I develop my own framework...
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:08 am
by jaoudestudios
I did miss out 1 thing, CakePHP does have its bake command line functionality which was great at kick starting a project (put in rules and it will build the CRUD of all the pages and database tables)! Unfortunately, Zend Framework is missing this feature.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:57 am
by Turv
I have to say I'm pleasantly impressed thus far with Zend Framework. There's going to be a massive learning curve but i can see why so many people use it for large web applications.
I will say though that this 'Introduction to Zend' tutorial far suppasses the ones i found in the Zend in Action book or the one on the Zend Website.
http://akrabat.com/wp-content/uploads/g ... rk-162.pdf
Only problem i am finding at the moment is error handling, I either get a massive ugly error message or a very generic 'Application Error'. Takes ages to find where the problem occurs - I googled for more advanced error handling controllers but none of them will help with debugging as they stil lonly display 'Application Error'.
Anyone have any advice for dealing with Zend Framework errors?
EDIT: Whoops! I have just realised that the author of the tutorial above is the same author who wrote the 'Zend Framework in Action' book haha...Except the tutorial is up-to-date with the latest version of Zend. Lol.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:13 am
by Weirdan
Turv wrote:Anyone have any advice for dealing with Zend Framework errors?
Log them in error controller to Zend_Log. Zend_Log can be configured to write to a variety of output adapters - one of them being FirePHP adapter, the best choice during active development. When you log something to firephp it gets sent alongside the page in page headers to firephp firebug plugin - and your error messages will appear right in front of you in your firebug console.
Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:58 am
by jaoudestudios
Turv wrote:I have to say I'm pleasantly impressed thus far with Zend Framework. There's going to be a massive learning curve but i can see why so many people use it for large web applications.
I will say though that this 'Introduction to Zend' tutorial far suppasses the ones i found in the Zend in Action book or the one on the Zend Website.
http://akrabat.com/wp-content/uploads/g ... rk-162.pdf
Only problem i am finding at the moment is error handling, I either get a massive ugly error message or a very generic 'Application Error'. Takes ages to find where the problem occurs - I googled for more advanced error handling controllers but none of them will help with debugging as they stil lonly display 'Application Error'.
Anyone have any advice for dealing with Zend Framework errors?
EDIT: Whoops! I have just realised that the author of the tutorial above is the same author who wrote the 'Zend Framework in Action' book haha...Except the tutorial is up-to-date with the latest version of Zend. Lol.
i had a quick look at that PDF and it does seem much more up-to-date. I will have a better read this weekend - Thanks for the link.
Weirdan wrote:Log them in error controller to Zend_Log. Zend_Log can be configured to write to a variety of output adapters - one of them being FirePHP adapter, the best choice during active development. When you log something to firephp it gets sent alongside the page in page headers to firephp firebug plugin - and your error messages will appear right in front of you in your firebug console.
Cool. Look forward to trying that too. Cheers

Re: Framework suggestions
Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:57 pm
by volomike
Have you all checked out Limonade? I must say it's fascinating. I won't run with it, but it certainly is interesting.
http://www.sofa-design.net/limonade/