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Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:57 am
by onion2k
juma929 wrote:Two developers with the same experience go for the same job, one is certified...?
The person with the better portfolio and code samples should get the job. If the company is concerned about whether you've got a ZCE or not then I wouldn't want to work for them. Having a ZCE does not mean you're a good developer.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:02 am
by Benjamin
onion2k wrote:If the company is concerned about whether you've got a ZCE or not then I wouldn't want to work for them. Having a ZCE does not mean you're a good developer.
Amen to that. The questions are pretty out there and not really geared towards real world problems one might encounter on a day to day basis. I have no interest in getting certified. I don't see it as anything more than a waste of money and an ego boost.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:26 am
by juma929
Hello,

Both of you make great points and I dont dissagree with everything you say. I never said getting certified is a badge that says "im the best developer". It is aiming to test competencies with a language, not judging your skills as a developer and applying the right methodology to the right situation etc.

When I said two people go for the same job, I was implying they have the same experience and same levels of expertise shown in their examples, theoretical question (in my head they are twins who have lived the same lives apart from one went to a pearson testing centre one day). Well that was my intention anyway :P.

My overall message to people is that getting certified is worth your time, and ive experienced it first hand so thats why I promote certification. I have already experienced a benefit and I was only certified last week, but thats purely because I have a lot of freelance clients already and certification allowed me to further validate my costs and in a couple of cases increase it slightly.

Thousands of people across the country do Maths GCSE's for example. This doesnt mean they are perfect at using mathematics in all the situations they encounter but it means they can understand the principles of Maths and on that basis can apply it in future. Just like PHP certification shows that you can use PHP, you know the commonly used functions, how to use OOP, XML, common pitfalls etc but it doesnt nesessarily mean you are the best developer in the world.

What im trying to get across here is that by getting certified, its not saying "im the best developer", its saying "i can use PHP and ive passed a test to show it" and here look at my examples to prove it (hands over portfolio) and in no way shape or form do I suggest that just through certification alone you are guaranteed a job over the next guy.

As I say, not an argument here, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that in a nutshell is pretty much mine :).

Thanks :)

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:54 am
by onion2k
juma929 wrote:What im trying to get across here is that by getting certified, its not saying "im the best developer", its saying "i can use PHP and ive passed a test to show it" and here look at my examples to prove it (hands over portfolio) and in no way shape or form do I suggest that just through certification alone you are guaranteed a job over the next guy.
If you're in a position that you need to prove you know the basics (if you're a recent graduate for example), sure, maybe a ZCE will help. My point is that the ZCE exam is usually taken by people interested in PHP who've been using it professionally for a few years. Those people don't need to prove they know the language - they need to prove they can develop good software. The ZCE doesn't do that. Therefore, in my opinion, it's redundant.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:57 am
by juma929
Hello,

Ok, cool :).

As I say, its just nice to have :).

Thanks

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:07 am
by Eran
I think you guys are a bit harsh.
There are employers that require such certification that people want to work with (even if it's not you specifically). Sometimes it's more about politics and other extraneous reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's useless.

A company I worked for a year ago paid for my ZF certification since they had a project lined up with Zend itself and they required it. I've since seen it been requested as a big plus in many openings. Having taken the test itself I can guarantee to you it's not completely a walk in the park.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:19 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:Having taken the test itself I can guarantee to you it's not completely a walk in the park.
I don't think anyone is saying it's easy.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:32 am
by alex.barylski
onion2k: That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Certifications really say or do little, other than prove you have a paper understanding of the basics. I have always hated tests, as my short term memory is horrible, however my long term memory is quite the opposite. Besides, any answer I do not know (such as parameter order) can be easily and quickly resolved by looking up a reference manual or asking feyd. :P

That being said, there is little harm in anyone taking a test and proving themselves to some degree. Certifications are very important in a world where every developer has experience in:

PHP/LAMP/WAMP/MySQL/C#/Java/SmallTalk/JavaScript/XHTML/C/C++/Cocca/Lisp/Assembly/Machine/ the list goes on...

I would prefer to hire a master of a few, expert of none and no Jack in the box. :P

Specializing in a few languages/technologies is the best choice IMHO, and at least passing a PHP exam proves you took the time and effort to learn it thouroughly, not just read a few articles, download some sampe code and run a few examples then claim to be skilled in language XYZ or whatever the flavour of the week is.

The exam is probably more of a money grab by Zend than anything else.

Cheers,
Alex

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:13 am
by Eran
I don't think anyone is saying it's easy.
You guys were implying that it means nothing. If it's not easy, at least it shows some competence.
Now that I'm in the position where I'm the one hiring, if a possible candidate has such a certification to me it gives something more than just relying on his word. Not that I'm overly paranoid, but a lot of people pad their CV with projects and accomplishments in which they had little actual part in, and it's very hard to ascertain what they really did without giving them a thorough examination.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:24 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:You guys were implying that it means nothing. If it's not easy, at least it shows some competence.
It absolutely shows you're competent at knowing PHP's more arcane syntax. I'm not disputing that.

I'm saying that's completely the wrong thing to look for when you're recruiting a developer. Anyone who does look for that is running a company that I would be circumspect accepting a job at. It's a very bad sign. The important thing about web development is writing a good quality, well designed, usable, accessible website. Things like the developer using a while() where a foreach() would work better doesn't matter at all, yet that's the sort of thing the ZCE tests.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:55 am
by juma929
Hello,

I think it all comes down to personal opinion. I believe as mentioned that certification is worth a developers time and effort however others dont.

Thanks :)

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:31 am
by Christopher
juma929 wrote:By the way I know my signature is a little over the top, but let me enjoy it for one week at least?

:P
Congratulations on your certification. And yes enjoy your signature for a while! ;) But you guys probably need to use the smaller logo and fewer lines of text to meet the forum guidelines (4 lines or 65 pixels as I recall). The guidelines are to make post reading easier rather than having big visual breaks on the page.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:14 pm
by Eran
Things like the developer using a while() where a foreach() would work better doesn't matter at all, yet that's the sort of thing the ZCE tests
I took the ZF test, but I doubt that's what the ZCE is all about. The questions were mostly technical but also required understanding of the patterns and structure. There were several questions that even though I was not familiar with the material itself (components I don't use), I could answer easily because they rely on knowledge of the standards and patterns.
I came out with a renewed appreciation for the test, as I was much of the same opinion as you before. Until you take it, you can't just dismiss it like you have.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:39 pm
by alex.barylski
Until you take it, you can't just dismiss it like you have.
That pretty much sums it up, right there. :D

Lets just say, while it might be a waste of time for some, it wouldn't hurt anyone to actually take it and add it to their belt.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:36 am
by matthijs
Maybe it's a bit like a drivers license. Getting one means you can drive a car. But that doesn't mean you drive well or you aren't a danger on the road :)
Yet still having one means something.


(although here in the Netherlands they get more difficult each year, with only 30% succeeding at each test)