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Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:59 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:Until you take it, you can't just dismiss it like you have.
I've done several of the practise exams. You can too: http://koduleht.eu/phptest/

The fact is, any exam that tests your knowledge of syntax is a waste of time in my opinion. As an employer I honestly don't care if someone knows the answers to the sorts of questions in most of those tests. Proving you're a good developer is down to demonstrating you can solve a problem in a sensible way and then implement that in code - if you have to look up a function in the manual or ask another developer that's perfectly ok. What's important to me is that your processes are sound, not that you know "Which parameters would you pass to fopen() in order to open a file for reading and writing (Choose 2)?" (http://koduleht.eu/phptest/taketest.php?6 ... #11). You can look that up.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:20 am
by Eran
From the link you gave there are definitely relevant sections after from the introduction syntax questions. Again, this test tests competency with a specific language, not ability as a developer. That is not nothing, at least in my opinion.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:25 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:Again, this test tests competency with a specific language, not ability as a developer.
You can be very competent with a language and still fail a test like that. Someone who is competent is able to look things up if they don't know them. You don't have to be able to remember everything under exam conditions to write good code, and being able to doesn't mean you will write good applications.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:33 am
by Benjamin
The manual is my friend. I look things up half the time even if I know the answer just to double check things. Attempting to memorize every function and it's parameters is a waste of RAM... er memory.. or something.

But yeah, I have to agree with Onion2k on this. I feel that a score based on questions similar to those previously mentioned is just barely an indication of ones actual skill level.

Want to see what someone can do? Give them a coding challenge.

I had someone request (as a code sample) that I build an ajax application using the symfony framework that would allow them to manage employees. The employee list would be on the left, the form on the right. Changes on the right should be reflected on the left without a page reload. I did a great job on it but they never called me back. Maybe they just scammed me out of a free application :( Anyway here it is:

http://nuscripts.com/

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:02 am
by Eran
You can be very competent with a language and still fail a test like that.
Don't see how that is possible. the passing criteria is not a perfect score. If you answer all the concept questions and only half the syntax questions you should still pass with flying colors.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:35 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:
You can be very competent with a language and still fail a test like that.
Don't see how that is possible. the passing criteria is not a perfect score. If you answer all the concept questions and only half the syntax questions you should still pass with flying colors.
My point is that you don't really need to answer any complicated syntax questions correctly to be competent with the language. 99% of the code we write is very straightforward (or it should be..).

Also, consider an opposing argument - someone could get all the obscure syntax questions correct and only half the concept ones right and still pass with flying colours. That's half the questions about software design, security, etc wrong and they're still apparently qualified to code PHP applications? Doesn't that sound a bit wrong to you? Knowing that, if you were an employer, would you trust the ZCE?

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:44 am
by alex.barylski
Doesn't that sound a bit wrong to you? Knowing that, if you were an employer, would you trust the ZCE?
I think all tests are stupid, but I think your missing the point.

A test proves at least one thing, that your not totally clueless about a subject. I would rather hire someone with ZCE status than a average joe walking in off the street just looking for a programming job with only a 5 min. introduction to PHP programming.

The more certifications one can acquire, generally the better off they are.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:35 am
by Eran
someone could get all the obscure syntax questions correct and only half the concept ones right and still pass with flying colours
that's a good point. Personally I have only experience with the ZF certification test and not the PHP5 test. Someone carrying the ZF certification would go definitely have weight when I consider candidates, especially since we are developing mainly with it.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:21 am
by marty pain
I'll be taking the exam at some point at the end of this year, or the start of next, as my boss just offered to pay for it. :D

I think it will be a handy thing to have as a lot of people who actually hire developers aren't always developers themselves, and don't always appreciate what makes a good developer, so having extra certificates always helps, regardless of your thoughts on them. I read a developers blog who had achieved lots of certifications, and said he didn't really learn a thing by doing them, but they have always helped to get his foot in the door. Once in the interview then they don't really mean anything, as then you have to prove you are good, regardless of what it says on your CV.

I find remarks about "just knowing syntax" amusing, as I have had numerous interviews (for PHP and other languages) where they had syntax type questions, or have had to write code on a piece of paper with no references, so knowing the syntax of a language inside out is very useful indeed. Looking at passed code snippets in interviews doesn't really ever happen, as how can you prove you actually wrote it? In a perfect world an interview for a developer position would mean going to work for them for at least a couple of hours to see how you get on, but that is very rare.

At the end of the day, regardless of how we feel about this type of thing, they're useful to have.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:08 am
by onion2k
PCSpectra wrote:A test proves at least one thing, that your not totally clueless about a subject. I would rather hire someone with ZCE status than a average joe walking in off the street just looking for a programming job with only a 5 min. introduction to PHP programming
That's a completely stupid comparison. And I'm not saying the ZCE doesn't prove anything, I'm saying it proves something that no employer needs you to prove. The ZCE exam only proves you're competent with the PHP language. Employers need to see if you're a good developer. They're not the same thing.

If my employer decided to pay for me to take it I would. Sure, why not? It's nice to have it. It's a bit of fun. I'm just being realistic in saying it won't affect my career prospects.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:16 am
by onion2k
marty pain wrote:I find remarks about "just knowing syntax" amusing, as I have had numerous interviews (for PHP and other languages) where they had syntax type questions, or have had to write code on a piece of paper with no references, so knowing the syntax of a language inside out is very useful indeed.
I've had interviews like that too. I've walked out of more than one. Any company that asks you to write code without having references, even if it's just in an interview, is utterly moronic and not the sort of place I'd want to work at. I'm damn good at what I do, but I haven't committed the PHP manual to memory.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:37 am
by marty pain
I've had interviews like that too. I've walked out of more than one. Any company that asks you to write code without having references, even if it's just in an interview, is utterly moronic and not the sort of place I'd want to work at. I'm damn good at what I do, but I haven't committed the PHP manual to memory.
I just do it then turn them down when offered the job if i didn't like them. Sometimes the non-developer bosses insist on such things, but I always have a good chat with at least one of the developers to find out what the deal is before making my mind up.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:38 am
by jayshields
onion2k wrote:
marty pain wrote:I find remarks about "just knowing syntax" amusing, as I have had numerous interviews (for PHP and other languages) where they had syntax type questions, or have had to write code on a piece of paper with no references, so knowing the syntax of a language inside out is very useful indeed.
I've had interviews like that too. I've walked out of more than one. Any company that asks you to write code without having references, even if it's just in an interview, is utterly moronic and not the sort of place I'd want to work at. I'm damn good at what I do, but I haven't committed the PHP manual to memory.
Although I pretty much agree with what you're saying, you've got to look at it from a different perspective.

I could apply for a job coding in Python (which I have never touched before), and as long as I had the manual in front of me I imagine I would be able to pass any tests on the language (providing I'm not given extremely limited time).

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:49 pm
by VladSun
I could apply for a job coding in Python (which I have never touched before), and as long as I had the manual in front of me I imagine I would be able to pass any tests on the language (providing I'm not given extremely limited time).
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

OK, you have 24 hours (that is quite "unlimited time") to tell us what is this script doing:

Code: Select all

perl -lane'
  push @{$r{$F[0]}}, $F[1];
  print map "$_ @{$r{$_}} ".~~@{$r{$_}}."\n", keys %r
    if eof
    ' infile
It's "in BASH", though it calls Perl ...

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:01 pm
by Eran
:lol:
can't wait to see how this turns out..