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Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:23 pm
by Weirdan
onion2k wrote:Any company that asks you to write code without having references, even if it's just in an interview, is utterly moronic and not the sort of place I'd want to work at.
You missing the point of such interviews. If you're asked to write code on paper you're not expected to produce code that would compile. At least not if you're interviewed by me :). When I ask people to write code on paper, I want to see how they deal with lack of information (in this busyness you rarely get fully formulated requirements from a client). I want to hear their questions. I want to see how they approach the problem.

The last time I interviewed a candidate, he didn't write a single line of code. In fact he knew very little PHP (he was a Perl developer), but still he was able to explain clearly and concisely how the problem is solved. He asked right questions. He didn't ask wrong questions. Needless to say he passed with flying colors.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:18 pm
by alex.barylski
I want to hear their questions
The most important part of any interview, from both sides. :)

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:10 am
by onion2k
jayshields wrote:I could apply for a job coding in Python (which I have never touched before), and as long as I had the manual in front of me I imagine I would be able to pass any tests on the language (providing I'm not given extremely limited time).
To be honest, if someone could pass a test and produce a good code sample having never touched the language before I'd be pretty happy to employ them. That's exactly the sort of quick learning research ability that I think is the sign of a very good developer. They might take a little longer to be productive, but they've demonstrated an ability to solve a problem. That's what's important. When I got my current job (nearly 10 years ago) I'd been using PHP for less than 2 weeks, but I had 2 years of Perl and ASP and a very good knowledge of how to write websites. The language itself is not important.

How is someone who can't do that going to cope when they're given a complex problem they've never encountered before?

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:14 am
by onion2k
Weirdan wrote:
onion2k wrote:Any company that asks you to write code without having references, even if it's just in an interview, is utterly moronic and not the sort of place I'd want to work at.
You missing the point of such interviews. If you're asked to write code on paper you're not expected to produce code that would compile. At least not if you're interviewed by me :). When I ask people to write code on paper, I want to see how they deal with lack of information (in this busyness you rarely get fully formulated requirements from a client). I want to hear their questions. I want to see how they approach the problem.

The last time I interviewed a candidate, he didn't write a single line of code. In fact he knew very little PHP (he was a Perl developer), but still he was able to explain clearly and concisely how the problem is solved. He asked right questions. He didn't ask wrong questions. Needless to say he passed with flying colors.
That's exactly how it should work. Sadly the interviews I've had where I've been asked to write code haven't been like that.

The lesson to take away from this is that the language itself is not important. Proving you know PHP by taking the ZCE is not proving what a good employer should be looking for.

Re: Zend Certification

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:40 am
by marty pain
That's exactly how it should work. Sadly the interviews I've had where I've been asked to write code haven't been like that.
I agree. I find it more common that they give you a piece of paper, say "do that, I'll be back in 30 minutes."

I had one interview where the main bloke was sick so one of his top developers interviewed me. I was told there was no paper test, but the first thing i had to do when i got there was a paper test, given to me by the receptionist. They did a lot of middle ware and used a lot of functions i had never seen before (I had only done a year or so of PHP at that point) and all the questions used them. Didn't do well in the test and was thinking it was all a waste of time as, had i had a computer there, i could have just looked them up in two seconds.

However, the interview its self was the best i ever had. I chatted to the developer for about an hour and a half about what they did and how i would go about the problems he faced everyday. The developer said "I'm definitely recommending you!", but i didn't get the job as i didn't do so well on paper, and at the end of the day his boss, the one i didn't meet, made the final decision.

As I'm more than happy with my skill as a developer and I've been doing PHP solidly for a while now, I've decided to specialise in it, so for that ends the ZCE test suits me well.