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Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:19 pm
by bnther
I'm a freelance web designer who has realized that he'd better get with the 'dynamic' side of things (or he will soon be the starving freelance web designer :wink: )

I'm looking to build a website for the local chamber of commerce. They don't need a blog, but they will have monthly announcements and they do have a database for their membership listings. My question is this..."what is the best way to go about this?"

I've spent a fair amount of time, looking over WordPress and Joomla tutorials and I'm not real thrilled with the idea of learning another WYSIWYG. I already have a cost effective way of building HTML/CSS pages, but should this be the way things are going then I will adapt accordingly. However, I am of the opinion that for a chamber of commerce, the full CMS system might be overkill. That's an amateurs opinion.

In the future, I may use a 3rd party shopping cart for small business e-commerce, but I certainly do not see myself ever doing anything on the enterprise level.

My current PHP skill level is beginner. I really only use it for navigation and contact forms, but I have no issues expanding my skills.

So which is it? For immediate concerns, do I go direct php to database, or should I learn WordPress or Joomla?

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:36 pm
by JakeJ
If I were you I'd hit the PHP and MySQL tutorials pretty hard. After that you'll understand what's going on under the hood of Wordpress, Joomla, OSCommerce, Magento, Cakephp, etc.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:52 pm
by alex.barylski
I'm a freelance web designer who has realized that he'd better get with the 'dynamic' side of things (or he will soon be the starving freelance web designer )
I'm going to feed you some tough love, ready?

If your unsuccessful as a web designer, what makes you think you'll do any better in web development? More people out source PHP programming than web design, etc. So be prepared to work for $10-15/hour for a few years before you build enough experience and contacts to find gigs actually worth workin for.

Secondly, being proficient in both is a misnomer, in my experience they are such widely differnt fields, rare (if ever) do you find experts in both. Yes there are designers who make awesome design and even build fully usable applications, but the code is poor, full of security holes and lacks any direction or architecture.

Thirdly, PHP is awesome because it's so easy to learn, but it's also easy to build large applications which are not up to 'code' -- no pun intended. However it is free to learn and learning something new is never a bad thing (unless it's how to pick your nose, chew your toe nails, etc but hopefully were all passed those stages in life). So Zend or WP or whatever your favorite application is and begin extending it.

Cheers,
Alex

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:49 pm
by bnther
PCSpectra wrote:If your unsuccessful as a web designer, what makes you think you'll do any better in web development?
I may be wrong, but it seems like there are fewer and fewer static websites being made these days. Adding a certain amount of dynamics to my product, I'm hoping, will open up the market to me.
PCSpectra wrote:Secondly, being proficient in both is a misnomer, in my experience they are such widely differnt fields, rare (if ever) do you find experts in both. Yes there are designers who make awesome design and even build fully usable applications, but the code is poor, full of security holes and lacks any direction or architecture.
So why bother trying, is that the question?
Well... because it's better than sitting back and doing nothing. I agree that the artistic and mathematic talents are quite often polar opposite of each other. Perhaps it has to do with the portion of the brain that is utilized. I dunno, that would be for smarter minds than mine to decide. But natural talents aside, who's to say that I might not develop a talent at it. The name Bruce Lee is synonymous with 'bad-ass', yet few people know that his left leg was 1 inch shorter than his right (childhood polio), he was extremely near sighted and weighed 135lbs at his peak. I think it's safe to say that he had almost no natural physical abilities that would lend themselves to fighting. Yet he was the bad-azz-mofo Bruce Lee :!:

Point is, the market is a little slim these days and I want to be able to expand what it is I can offer. I'm reluctant to go with Joomla or WordPress as it's usually pretty easy to tell one of their websites -- they have that 'manufactured' feel to them and I don't care for that. If I thought that these WYSIWIG's were going to dominate the future design market, then I would adapt. I probably should just buckle down and learn to do things the hand-coded way, as that would be more my style. Will that be easy for me, probably not. But that shouldn't be the determining factor.

Thanks for the response.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:54 pm
by Eran
Putting aside whether this is the right career choice or not, try to break down your application requirements into small components and consider how to implement each one. If you need feedback / guidance, you can open a topic discussion as each subject as needed. You will find specific questions get much more concrete answers around here.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:06 pm
by JakeJ
PCSpectra,

I have to disagree with you on a few points. First of all, I'm relatively new to PHP. I've done a lot of VBA and Access programming so the transition wasn't that difficult. After years of just dinking around with it here and there while I was mostly a network engineer, I decided to specialize in helping small businesses consolidate their spreadsheets and other info sources in to a web driven database application and I'm making pretty decent money doing it. I expect within 6 months to be making at least $8000 month if I set it up right (I'm not about to give away my business plan here).

I'm not a great programmer; I'll admit that. I've got a good head for logic, I know where to go for answers when I get stumped (hint, hint, you're here) and I'm great at troubleshooting. I SUCK at web development. I'm not good with graphics and the sites I've designed aren't even close to top notch so I have someone else do that part of it for me.

But I'm still learning a lot and I'll get better over time. My clients don't want to outsource stuff because they've either had bad experiences or they simply don't trust anyone overseas enough to do it. They'd rather have an American who understands business, work flow and people do it.

I DO agree that most programmers are lousy web designers. Left brain, right brain stuff. This is still a growth market though and there is plenty of business to be had for domestic programmers and not necessarily at slave wages.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:37 pm
by flying_circus
This topic kind of hits home, and wether it helps answer the OP's question or not, I think I'll throw myself out there anyways.

I tend to side with PCSpectra.

It is impossible to do everything yourself and do a stellar job at it, and time is a business owners most valuable resource. Spend your time where you excel and hire a skilled developer to complement your design skills, to form a complete package.

The problem with being a developer is that it takes a substantial amount of time to become a "good" developer. Learning enough PHP to just make your page dynamic (like menus, navgation, and such) will open up your website to vulnerabilities that you never knew existed. Next thing you know, the chamber is calling you up because their website is defaced (or worse) and you have no idea where to start troubleshooting. It can have really bad results for your business if this situation were to occur.

I would like to say that this is a hypothetical situation, but I spend enough time perusing the "PHP Code" forum on this site to know, it's just the reality of learning.

I encourage you to learn PHP if you are truly interested in learning. At this stage, especially for paid work, I can not recommend it. I'm also not suggesting that given a few months, you can pick it up, it takes years. (ask me how I know, and I'm still kind of an idiot). Accept or Reject my opinion, it's just my perspective on the world.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:50 pm
by alex.barylski
I may be wrong, but it seems like there are fewer and fewer static websites being made these days. Adding a certain amount of dynamics to my product, I'm hoping, will open up the market to me.
This is true, absolutely, but you don't need to be a developer to build dynamic sites, Drupal is quite flexible once you master it's CCK and Views and Joomla ain't to bad either.
So why bother trying, is that the question
No of course not, well maybe a small side of me feels that way, less competition equals easier life for me. :P

Certainly I appreciate being chellenged, it keeps me at the top of my game, the point, was that I would suggest you pick one and go with it. It's frustrating to see so many designer/developer hybrids out there, all listing their areas of expertise from Photoshop to Flash to PHP and jQuery and MySQL and Postgres. It's confusing to clients and not really justified.
Point is, the market is a little slim these days and I want to be able to expand what it is I can offer.
Thats the problem. If you wear to many hats you become a master of none and software will *really* suffer when it's built my half-fast developers. Just Google PHP applications and look at most of them. They look pretty but the bugs per line is outrageous and doing tech support for them is insane. I could list a few well known companies I have worked for in the past who developed garbageware -- but I will save political face. :)

If times are tight, it's even a better time to buckle down and focus on niche markets. It's clears your business strategy for starters, and makes you appear as a specialist for two, which more people will want to hire than a jack of all trades type.
I'm reluctant to go with Joomla or WordPress as it's usually pretty easy to tell one of their websites -- they have that 'manufactured' feel to them and I don't care for that
Drupal is the same way. WordPress is probably easiet to theme, Joomla being next and Drupal being a distant third. Although if you really adhere to Joomla template practices, they can get pretty complicated too. Personally I take a static page, strip the body, title and meta tags, and insert the required Joomla component and modules and away I go.

If a web site appears Joomla-ish (Drupalish or WP-ish) it's probalby because the developers/designers did not invest the time needed to really make it look professional, not so much the fault of Joomla and or Drupal.
If I thought that these WYSIWIG's were going to dominate the future design market, then I would adapt. I probably should just buckle down and learn to do things the hand-coded way, as that would be more my style. Will that be easy for me, probably not. But that shouldn't be the determining factor.
Joomla, Drupal and WordPress are not going anywhere anytime soon. You could probably safely ignore the others, IMO. Each comes with a learning curve, most frustrating for me, as an experienced developer was the lack of documentation in building modules, components, etc. It was a real trial and error experience, when all I wanted was to build some dynamic features for a web site.

Joomla was a little easier and WordPress felt like everything was hacked togather. If you do not have much experience in PHP you will not suffer the same fate as I have over and over again since Drupal, Joomla/Mambo/etc were released. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.
But I'm still learning a lot and I'll get better over time. My clients don't want to outsource stuff because they've either had bad experiences or they simply don't trust anyone overseas enough to do it. They'd rather have an American who understands business, work flow and people do it.
DO agree that most programmers are lousy web designers. Left brain, right brain stuff. This is still a growth market though and there is plenty of business to be had for domestic programmers and not necessarily at slave wages.
It really had nothing to do with wages. Rather the proliferation of jack of all trades type people due to tough markets. You spread yourself to thin and the quality suffers. I hate crappy software as much as the next. If you or anyone, is going to become a developer, than go for it and dive in head first...don't however try and pass yourself off as a professional in business relations, software development, enterpsie security, network engineer, PR specialist, logo creator, brand specialist, baby bum diaper changer, etc. :P

Cheers,
Alex

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:06 pm
by Eran
There's market for the specialists as well as for the jack-of-all-trades. Small businesses don't want to deal with multiple contractors nor they have very complicated requirements for the most part. It's almost expected nowadays that web designers should be able to deliver a simple content site based on one of the open-source CMS packages.

It's almost always preferable for a client to work with one provider, be it a freelancer or a firm - the choice is determined by budget / scope. Either way, they are usually expected to handle all aspects of delivery - you can't expect a client to know what he needs a designer for and what he needs a developer for.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
by alex.barylski
It's almost always preferable for a client to work with one provider, be it a freelancer or a firm - the choice is determined by budget / scope. Either way, they are usually expected to handle all aspects of delivery - you can't expect a client to know what he needs a designer for and what he needs a developer for.
That to me, is the role of a internet solutions consultant, not a designer, developer or system administrator. Having the same person all three is asking for trouble, having a single point of contact is an entirely different story, IMO.

Cheers,
Alex

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 pm
by flying_circus
pytrin wrote:There's market for the specialists as well as for the jack-of-all-trades. Small businesses don't want to deal with multiple contractors nor they have very complicated requirements for the most part. It's almost expected nowadays that web designers should be able to deliver a simple content site based on one of the open-source CMS packages.
I agree. I dont think it's un-reasonable for a freelance designer to skin a template system. Though, you shouldnt need to be a developer to do this kind of work.

pytrin wrote:It's almost always preferable for a client to work with one provider, be it a freelancer or a firm - the choice is determined by budget / scope. Either way, they are usually expected to handle all aspects of delivery - you can't expect a client to know what he needs a designer for and what he needs a developer for.
I also agree. I feel that it is my duty to deliver a top quality product to my customers. If this means I need to budget extra for a designer on a project, then thats what it takes. I certainly wont release one of my designs (mediocre at best) to a paying customer. I've havent been doing this long, but I've been doing it long enough to know that customers make changes. I spend more time fiddle-f**kin with a graphic making a change, than if I just had a designer make the changes, which frees up my time to work on another project. I've also learned that it's important to have a policy up front that states how many major or minor changes you are willing to do within the work estimate.

A customer comes to me for a complete solution, and I coordinate it. Kind of like how a home owner would hire a general contractor to coordinate the roofers, electricians, masons, framers, plumbers, etc. A small company that does a little of this and a little of that, starves. Your mileage may vary, of course :)

This really is a good discussion topic. It's something I've been thinking about quite frequently.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:25 am
by Eran
That to me, is the role of a internet solutions consultant, not a designer, developer or system administrator. Having the same person all three is asking for trouble, having a single point of contact is an entirely different story, IMO.
Again, you're expecting a lame person to know the difference and pursue a consultant to address his needs. I also believe that aside from medium-large businesses, most clients have no issue dealing with a consultant which will just eat budget and will not add much value (in my opinion). You want consult, talk to an expert with hands-on experience.
I agree. I dont think it's un-reasonable for a freelance designer to skin a template system. Though, you shouldnt need to be a developer to do this kind of work.
I think designers can go a little beyond just skinning and perform simple modifications themselves. It's certainly not that far of a reach and most people should get the hang of it rather quickly.

I just want to point out that we have a designer / developer that is proficient at both here at the forum - matthijs. I hope he can contribute to this discussion.

Re: Educated opinions pleeez

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:10 am
by matthijs
Interesting topic and a question I have struggled with a long time, since being a jack of all trades.

I agree with Pytrin that many clients do not know the difference between the different roles and often don't want to deal with different designers/developers. This certainly depends on the client however. If you work with larger businesses who have websites/apps build more often, they more often will know they need different "levels" of development for the larger projects. So they know they will first hire a graphic design company of person to have a design made. Then they take that to a developer/company to have it build, etc.
However, most smaller to medium clients (and even larger) just want to have their website build. They will come to the designer/developer with the question to build their website. Whether its a "static" portfolio site or a site with some functionality needing programming. One day they ask you to design a one-page website, the next they want a forum and after that they ask to integrate some client database in the site.

For me, as a one-man company, I have to be able to do most things, from designing in photoshop, front-end html/css/javascript work, to programming and managing server issues. Add to that knowing a bit about SEO, accessibility, usability, marketing, writing for the web and a few other things. That's a lot. Does that limit my skills in each individual area? Yes, certainly. I am not a very good graphic designer and not a very skilled programmer. However, I still believe it works out. Clients come to me with all kinds of work and questions. There's almost no website I build which doesn't need some CMS or some functionality. More and more sites are getting more functionality. people start to realize the possibilities and advantages of having things online. So having some PHP/MySql skills makes that all possible. And don't forget that you don't have to know everything up to expert level to build very good stuff. Take javascript for example. I hardly know plain javascript. However, using something like jQuery I can do almost anything I need.

However, I do know my limits. And in some cases I will explain my clients about that. Say someone comes to me with the question to build a website and they don't have a brand and logo yet. Then I'll explain them that for a really good result, it's best to ask a graphic designer to design something. Of course I have a few designers in my network, so that can be arranged. Other times, they want something programmed which is too difficult for me. Again, I can advice them about what they need and get the help from another developer I know. For most clients, it's very convenient to be able to have one point of contact for all their web related questions. Be it the design of another website or a question about the search engine performance of their site.

So my advice would be to try to be good in one area and at least decently in the others. At least know enough about the other areas to be able to deal with common issues. As soon as you do a bit of PHP, you also have to deal with server and database issues. Even if you install a basic Wordpress site, at some point you might want to dive in to some PHP work to customize something. Or deal with some weird server setting which messes up the character encoding of your site. Of course, be ready to invest some serious hours for a long time :)