core php or framework

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mannyee
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core php or framework

Post by mannyee »

hi guys!!

i am a recent graduate and my php skills are intermediate. i applied for a fresh php programmer position at an office and i was hired. but to my nightmare, on the very first day they gave me cakephp tutorials and asked me to start learning it since they use this framework for their projects.

i understand the power of using frameworks but given my level of knowledge i dont want to work on any frameworks right now.
my lecturer used to say that frameworks are only for the pros which i am not yet. personally i also think that working on a framework only is not good for a still-evolving programmer like me. even seniors at my firm have forgotten few basic things of core php. i want to hone my php skill....be a php expert.

so should i leave this job and start looking a new one that workson core php and that develops each of its project from scratch?? suggest guys....
siji86
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Re: core php or framework

Post by siji86 »

What i think is that if you are getting a chance to work on something new like cakephp, you should go ahead with it and enjoy the experience. Also, you can brush up your php skills whenever you have time and try to understand the basics that will help u a lot...
:D
alex.barylski
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Re: core php or framework

Post by alex.barylski »

understand the power of using frameworks but given my level of knowledge i dont want to work on any frameworks right now.
Why? I thinking the sooner you learn a framework, the better off you are professionally and personally.

A framework will save you from reinventing the wheel, which new developers inevtiably do. Your instructor was being emotionally biased, stating that new developers should not use frameworks. IMO, that is non-sense. Regardless of how you learn (whether from the ground up or start with a framework) there is a equally large learning curve in either direction.

Do you want to wait ten years to become an 'expert' in PHP before landing your first job, or jump in to an intermediate position and start making money tomorrow using a framework?

Cheers,
Alex
mannyee
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Re: core php or framework

Post by mannyee »

hi alex...hi siji

thanks for your suggestion guys....you have helped me to make up my mind
in the same time i am a bit excited and ....what to say confused?!!...i might need to learn other frameworks or CMS too if i happen to join another firms later on.....

but anways, thanks again
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pickle
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Re: core php or framework

Post by pickle »

You have a good point about not wanting to learn frameworks until you learn core PHP. My physics teacher always used to say: "You have to learn how to do it the hard way before you learn the easy way". I thought that was crap when I heard it, but it makes sense now (at least for programming).

Nonetheless, I wouldn't quite your job just to learn core PHP. The company hired you on your merits - so you and your skills are exactly what they want. They're even giving you an opportunity to learn the framework on company time so take advantage of it.
Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.
alex.barylski
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Re: core php or framework

Post by alex.barylski »

OP: Get used to leanring something new every month if you want to remain at the top of your game. CMS, Frameworks, Libraries, etc. Programming requires constant learning.

Cheers,
Alex
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pickle
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Re: core php or framework

Post by pickle »

PCSpectra wrote:OP: Get used to leanring something new every month if you want to remain at the top of your game. CMS, Frameworks, Libraries, etc. Programming requires constant learning.
...until you've been there 20 years. Then you can stop learning & you'll be kept on staff to maintain "legacy systems". ;)
Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.
alex.barylski
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Re: core php or framework

Post by alex.barylski »

In the above case, I suppose this is true. :)
mannyee
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Re: core php or framework

Post by mannyee »

PCSpectra wrote:OP: Get used to leanring something new every month if you want to remain at the top of your game. CMS, Frameworks, Libraries, etc. Programming requires constant learning.
well thats a good motivation for a novice like me.

and few days ago....i discussed this framework vs. core php stuff with a senior at my office, and he said i am too young to talk about core php......the stuff i am talking is not even core php and for novices like me there is not much difference between using $_SESSION[] and session.write() functions in cakePHP while developing......same thing only the ways are different. Well core php in his words means the lower level programming that makes how $_SESSION, echo, print_r etc. work, and stuffs like socket programming......besides in his opinion i am merely a developer using functions, classes....what others have programed/coded.....

its few weeks now i've started developing using cake.....its fun but darn i miss the mainstream php....i used to make mistakes esp. making security loopholes all the time and learn from those but now i dont make mistakes at all.....not much to learn about security aspects i believe
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panic!
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Re: core php or framework

Post by panic! »

I agree with most people on here:

Learn the core of PHP, the basic functions, basic programming concepts, how connecting to databases works etc.

Then learn a framework, most decent PHP web development oriented positions, (in London and Berlin anyway, can't say about the US) ask for a working knowledge of an MVC framework and they'll make your life a lot easier.
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Jonah Bron
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Re: core php or framework

Post by Jonah Bron »

I think that as a beginner programmer, one should, as pickle put it, "Learn it the hard way before you learn it the easy way". That means that you learn how the easy way works. It's just like in math: they prove why mathematical laws are true. You are required to do it the long way.

I spend several months studying Assembly Language in my extra-spare time to make my high-level programming better, and I feel it was time well spent.

Now, I do agree with PCSpectra that you can jump right into it, but I think that is only true if you are already learned in another language. If you have any sort of "knack" for programming at all, then when you've learned one language, you've learned them all.
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