I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

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josh
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I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by josh »

So these guys found me thru the Zend Framework Certification 'Yellow pages' & contacted me requesting phone interviews. I spoke with their system admin and we talked about design patterns, MVC, and we compared the pros & cons of my practice of testing (unit testing) vs his (recorded web tests aka Selenium). We came to the conclusion both solve overlapping but different problems so are both needed. I felt like both of us were learning from each other.

Anyways after much phone interview stuff they had me drive like 100 miles to their Miami office for a 4 1/2hr in person interview. When I showed up they had a different person for each 30 minute block of time, asking the SAME questions each time, me repeating myself. They notated the back of my resume and passed it to the next guy at the end of each 30 minutes, without any opportunity for me to read their notes. The entire time the closest question they asked related to MVC was mentioning "fat model thin controller" and us both agreeing that its "good". No one really asked me to elaborate on why, or list responsibilities of the different tiers in MVC, types of questions I would have asked a potential interviewee.

One of the guys revealed to me it was his first day on the job, and we both laughed that he's interviewing people already. Others interviewing me were warning me about the amount of rush projects, that everything is a rush and they don't have time to "do things right" because projects would get dropped in their lap with deadlines of the end of the day, I told them I had no problem with that and I would in fact try and abstract out the redundant parts with them. During the interview I had the impression that the company was hanging by a string and needed serious help w/ programming & management talent (I of course didn't say that to them, I just smiled and talked about things I think that could help, like writing unit tests for the rush projects, in order to refactor out duplicate code & speed up rush project).

A month after the interview I had not heard back, they followed up wrote they felt I did not demonstrate a good enough knowledge of OOP or MVC (this came from a Human Resources dept I had never communicated with).

Have any of you had such a terrible & offending interview experience? Is this typical of the average interview? I've been running my own company but jeez what a crummy job market if so. I think I'll continue to run my own company. Does anyone here honestly feel I don't "demonstrate enough knowledge"?

Like I'm sure I could learn more, but maybe I did something wrong in the interview? Was I supposed to just go in there and interview myself? Like run the interview myself, just talking and them not asking questions? (instead of answering their questions I could have talked over them reciting MVC knowledge...)

My other gripes were they mislead me about their unit testing practice (the recruiter said "they were using it but needed someone's help", the team said they didnt have the time to do it. The recruiter said yeah of course we have a dedicated QA department, when I showed up there was physically no department, but rather they just send out mass emails to the company before launches, and whoever tests it tests it). So yeah I felt like they mislead me, used up my time and didn't worry about anything but their own needs.

Now there's legit reasons they could have turned me down. No college (they knew it before they requested my time). I have a side company (they knew it before they requested my time). I use & am certified in Zend not Cake which they use (they knew it before they requested my time). I would have been ecstatic to be turned down for any of these reasons but I must admit I feel chewed up & spit out now.
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pickle
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by pickle »

It sounds like they were never serious about hiring you. I'm guessing one of two things happened:

1) Some Big Wig said they need to hire someone, so they went through the motions solely so they said they could have - not because they were hiring.
2 - most likely) The people actually doing the work went to HR/Big Wigs & said "we really need help". HR/Big Wigs said "sure - go find someone" with no intention of actually hiring. When a candidate (possibly you) was found, HR/Big Wigs then backed down.

Either way, they were almost certainly just jerking you around.
Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.
josh
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by josh »

That sounds about right. I never signed an NDA and they never asked me to keep any secrets so I'll just say it how it is. When I showed up the place was over crowded. The only people that seemed like they were doing any sort of work was the programmers, there was a lot of people just sitting outside on benches smoking cigarettes. On my interview schedule it said I'd be meeting the CEO & human resources but both were mysteriously "out" that day. The place was so over crowded they had valet parking to play Tetris with our cars (I parked illegally down the street & walked to the interview). They told me they had grown from 10 to 100 employees in one year, which had my hopes of getting hired, but you're probably right. I didn't even see where they would have the physical space to house me (parking, work space, etc.).

Thanks for your analysis. I would guess the programmers are in need of my help but upper management did this behind closed doors, as all the people I talked to seemed like they wanted me to help them adopt unit testing. One of the guys who wasn't even interviewing me was shouting "hire him" because he over heard I unit test my jquery code with qunit. hah.

Any tips for avoiding this or sniffing it out in advance? I wasted a whole day I could have spent working on my own company. Is there something I can do on my end to screen these companies out? Maybe one of the red flag's is the inherent "novelty" factor of their business model and lack of IT background? Would it be unethical to call up and ask for one of the programmers & inform him of the response I received? I don't want to be a "sore loser" that they didn't pick me but I think you're right, there's something fishy going on over there... after all they were kind enough to inform me of all the rush projects they get every day.
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Christopher
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by Christopher »

I would not take it seriously or personally. For whatever reason you were not the right fit when they either decided to hire someone or decided not to hire anyone. There may have been a better candidate, or a cheaper one, or probably they didn't really have the money to hire anybody. The fact that it was a month later means that whatever reason they gave you was just HR-speak.

The fact that you proposed best practices solutions probably turned them off -- given what you said their culture. The decision-makers are obviously hacks. I think this paragraph was hilarious and made be think that you are lucky you didn't get the job: ;)
josh wrote:One of the guys revealed to me it was his first day on the job, and we both laughed that he's interviewing people already. Others interviewing me were warning me about the amount of rush projects, that everything is a rush and they don't have time to "do things right" because projects would get dropped in their lap with deadlines of the end of the day, I told them I had no problem with that and I would in fact try and abstract out the redundant parts with them. During the interview I had the impression that the company was hanging by a string and needed serious help w/ programming & management talent (I of course didn't say that to them, I just smiled and talked about things I think that could help, like writing unit tests for the rush projects, in order to refactor out duplicate code & speed up rush project).
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Benjamin
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by Benjamin »

It's doubtful they gave you the true reason for the decision. Companies are so scared of getting sued that they start giving out lawyer approved canned responses.

I appreciate your methodology towards programming and I'm sure you write good stuff. It would seem that maybe if they are more concerned about meeting deadlines that perhaps they were looking for someone who would just get things done quickly, rather than spending the time to do things correctly. I would venture to guess that is the true reason.
josh
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by josh »

Christopher wrote:The fact that you proposed best practices solutions probably turned them off -- given what you said their culture. The decision-makers are obviously hacks.
Could be. The reason they use Cake over Zend that they gave to me was that the dude in the video (The CEO with the backwards baseball cap & his friends) said they "like it better". (But as far as I know he != programmer). They said the projects I'd be working on is modifying open source apps to "work with" custom front-ends they developed. Not sure an upfront decision to rewrite the whole front-end (vs rewriting various parts) is a wise one, but I didn't bring that up to them. For example phpBB you can pretty much skin it any way and bridge the user login tables in an hour of work. Rewriting the front-end would take me years. lol. trying to write code that reads & writes to a pre-defined database schema, as if the code was 'just' an after-thought.

I'm sort of lucky I didn't get the job but still, there's no law against taking a job & quitting immediately if it didn't live up to my expectations. Thanks for the condolences lol.

By the way Disney (resorts & theme parks division) called thru the Zend thing too, pretty cool. With that one I followed up once or twice after a phone interview and they said "ill call you back in 10" both times. lol at least they didn't have me drive 200 miles and move my schedule around. Disney > Zumba
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Jenk
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by Jenk »

I presume you are glad that you aren't (going to be) working there? I certainly am!

As pointed out already, the likely scenario is the the bean counter/decision maker doesn't want someone with their own ideas and talent, he wants someone to just do as they are told, and how they are told to do it.

Either that, or the HR dept has some ludicrous system where there is a select-list of excuses to be given to "failed" candidates, and that was the one chosen because they couldn't be bothered to do it properly.
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Jonah Bron
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by Jonah Bron »

josh wrote:I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"
Sorry, I'm laughing too hard to write a real response.
s992
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by s992 »

Jonah Bron wrote:
josh wrote:I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"
Sorry, I'm laughing too hard to write a real response.
+1
alex.barylski
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Re: I "did not demonstrate enough knowledge"

Post by alex.barylski »

A month after the interview I had not heard back, they followed up wrote they felt I did not demonstrate a good enough knowledge of OOP or MVC (this came from a Human Resources dept I had never communicated with).
If it came from HR it was likely through due process, filtering down the chain until it reached her. Someone at the top decided you weren't a right fit, for one reason or another.
Have any of you had such a terrible & offending interview experience
Yes of course, I think it's a fact of life, especially for those of us who are truly passionate about what we do and choose to circumvent traditional education for a more personalized self-taught experience - which I assume you are? I am. :)
Does anyone here honestly feel I don't "demonstrate enough knowledge"?
Well it depends on what was required of you. If it was a senior software developer/architect, maybe. You a very knowledgable guy, no doubt, but some positions take years in the trenches before you get them. Your only 22, I have 10 years on you and I only recently landed a position of some authority in a big company. My point is, don't fret your still young and incredibly gung-ho don't let one disappoint bring you down.
My other gripes were they mislead me about their unit testing practice (the recruiter said "they were using it but needed someone's help", the team said they didnt have the time to do it. The recruiter said yeah of course we have a dedicated QA department, when I showed up there was physically no department, but rather they just send out mass emails to the company before launches, and whoever tests it tests it). So yeah I felt like they mislead me, used up my time and didn't worry about anything but their own needs.
The difference between a developer and a business man, is developers don't lie. Being in business is all about making yourself "seem" better than the next so of course they lie, even to prospective employees. If they said "We suck, we don't pay well, everything is done adhoc" they would never find employees. :)
there's legit reasons they could have turned me down. No college (they knew it before they requested my time). I have a side company (they knew it before they requested my time). I use & am certified in Zend not Cake which they use (they knew it before they requested my time). I would have been ecstatic to be turned down for any of these reasons but I must admit I feel chewed up & spit out now
I feel your pain. Been there done that. It's life. I know you will, but I will say it anyways, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep kicking @$$. You definetely have the potential to contribute in a big way to software industry. Few people are as passionate about this industry as I am, thats why I come here frequently, guys like you, chris, jenk, weirdan, etc. I don't get that passion at work or friends or family.

I'm sure many of us have or will be in your shoes, don't fret. It wouldn't be the first time the the brightest star is not recognized. You will have your day, I promise, just stick with it. :)
It sounds like they were never serious about hiring you. I'm guessing one of two things happened:
I don't think thats fare. They were likely serious in hiring someone, but for (likely multiple) some reason they chose not to go with josh, thats business.

Christopher as usual had some pretty sound advice. Don't take it personally. It's hard at first, like asking out a girl when you know you face likely rejection. It gets easier. Your still young and look at the progress you've made already. Imagine what are you going to do in 10 more years?

Cheers,
Alex
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