Suggestions On Freelancing
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- Jonah Bron
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Suggestions On Freelancing
Hello, world!
I'm going to need a regular income soon, so I'd like to start getting a consistent flow of freelance jobs. Any tips on how to get my name out there? How should I approach the situation in terms of advertising/etc.? How big of a factor is the fact that I'm a minor?
Much appreciated.
I'm going to need a regular income soon, so I'd like to start getting a consistent flow of freelance jobs. Any tips on how to get my name out there? How should I approach the situation in terms of advertising/etc.? How big of a factor is the fact that I'm a minor?
Much appreciated.
- superdezign
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
The simple fact that you said "get my name out there" says (to me) that you already know that you should be building a web presence for yourself. Your account here is already a good start, particularly if you have insightful posts associated with it. That said, your web presence would also dictate what kind of clients you get requesting your services. You can make a blog directed at developers, and any clients you get through that will be confused readers or recruiters. You can make a portfolio site which (depending on how pretty it is) will bring the clients with a lot of money. In either case, focus on SEO for "php developer", "web developer", "freelance programmer", "contract developer", etc., and put a big focus on your location (California?) since most companies start their search locally.
As for advertising, you don't want to spend a lot of money on this. However, you should definitely get a business card. Give it out to any potential leads and be sure to be very friendly and smiley.
As for being a minor, it depends on how young. If you are still in school, then you should avoid making it known, as that will let your client know that you are unavailable most of them time. But, your youth is what your bigger clients are looking for. They want a balance of experience and "freshness," freshness meaning that they hope you won't be tied into standards and will think "outside of the box". Of course, to them that just means pretty and flashy, but tell them out of the box.
NOTE: I have got all of my freelance clients from recommendations, but my first clients came from me forcing myself to strike up conversation with at least 3 new people every day in college. Whenever someone show any interest in what you do, you've found a potential lead.
As for advertising, you don't want to spend a lot of money on this. However, you should definitely get a business card. Give it out to any potential leads and be sure to be very friendly and smiley.
As for being a minor, it depends on how young. If you are still in school, then you should avoid making it known, as that will let your client know that you are unavailable most of them time. But, your youth is what your bigger clients are looking for. They want a balance of experience and "freshness," freshness meaning that they hope you won't be tied into standards and will think "outside of the box". Of course, to them that just means pretty and flashy, but tell them out of the box.
NOTE: I have got all of my freelance clients from recommendations, but my first clients came from me forcing myself to strike up conversation with at least 3 new people every day in college. Whenever someone show any interest in what you do, you've found a potential lead.
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alex.barylski
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Ahhh to be young again 
I tried the freelance thing in my 20's and eventually concluded it was no way to make a living. It takes a equal dedication to running a business as it does learning about development. It's not something that comes easy to most developers which is why so many fail at it.
The worst part, is people seek you out as a "freelancer" because their looking to save money ad avoid going with an actual "business" and paying additional fees. The fact is, as a freelancer you inherit much of the same responsibilities a business does.
1. Rent/Office space
2. Downtime/Slow periods
3. Crabby unsatisfied customers
4. Investing time promoting and marketing
At least when operating under the guise of a agency you get time off. In the world of freelance if your not very clear up front of what your policies are, some of your client will assume they can chat you up at insane hours, you become almost a business partner but with no real vested interest in the business so you lose and they lose because you will eventually drain yourself and quit cold turkey.
The point is, I'm jaded, having tried and failed miserably (in the long run - I have made fast cash but not sustainable). :p
Seriously though, focus on running a business first and development next. If you can't do that,, you probably won't make the cut as a freelancer because you are essentially a business being run as a sole proprietor.
As for the minor thing...some might be reluctant to hire someone to youthful due to inexperience. But if you can walk the walk and talk the talk, you should be able to sell ice to an eskimo and deliver on that, so age is not a factor at all. Good luck!
Cheers,
Alex
I tried the freelance thing in my 20's and eventually concluded it was no way to make a living. It takes a equal dedication to running a business as it does learning about development. It's not something that comes easy to most developers which is why so many fail at it.
The worst part, is people seek you out as a "freelancer" because their looking to save money ad avoid going with an actual "business" and paying additional fees. The fact is, as a freelancer you inherit much of the same responsibilities a business does.
1. Rent/Office space
2. Downtime/Slow periods
3. Crabby unsatisfied customers
4. Investing time promoting and marketing
At least when operating under the guise of a agency you get time off. In the world of freelance if your not very clear up front of what your policies are, some of your client will assume they can chat you up at insane hours, you become almost a business partner but with no real vested interest in the business so you lose and they lose because you will eventually drain yourself and quit cold turkey.
The point is, I'm jaded, having tried and failed miserably (in the long run - I have made fast cash but not sustainable). :p
Seriously though, focus on running a business first and development next. If you can't do that,, you probably won't make the cut as a freelancer because you are essentially a business being run as a sole proprietor.
As for the minor thing...some might be reluctant to hire someone to youthful due to inexperience. But if you can walk the walk and talk the talk, you should be able to sell ice to an eskimo and deliver on that, so age is not a factor at all. Good luck!
Cheers,
Alex
- John Cartwright
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Only got a minute so this will be brief, but I completely agree with Alex. Simply being associated with the word "freelancer" is taking two steps backwards unfortunately. It seems to have a direct relationship with "cheap" for the most part, even though that is not the case. Most freelancers I've come across (including formerly myself) would charge more than most companies would quote (which would shock many clients). The ones that did stick around were the ones who realized the benefits of bringing in "contractors" and saw the value in it.
My advise would be to incorporate yourself (it's only a few hundred bucks) and brand yourself as a company (not an individual).
My advise would be to incorporate yourself (it's only a few hundred bucks) and brand yourself as a company (not an individual).
- Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Wow, thanks for the replies everyone.

I do have a web site, and it is pretty coolsuperdezign wrote:The simple fact that you said "get my name out there" says (to me) that you already know that you should be building a web presence for yourself. Your account here is already a good start, particularly if you have insightful posts associated with it. That said, your web presence would also dictate what kind of clients you get requesting your services. You can make a blog directed at developers, and any clients you get through that will be confused readers or recruiters. You can make a portfolio site which (depending on how pretty it is) will bring the clients with a lot of money. In either case, focus on SEO for "php developer", "web developer", "freelance programmer", "contract developer", etc., and put a big focus on your location (California?) since most companies start their search locally.
Planning on doing that very soon.superdezign wrote:As for advertising, you don't want to spend a lot of money on this. However, you should definitely get a business card. Give it out to any potential leads and be sure to be very friendly and smiley.
I will be in school, but it won't be as much of a factor as it could be. Just afternoons.superdezign wrote:As for being a minor, it depends on how young. If you are still in school, then you should avoid making it known, as that will let your client know that you are unavailable most of them time. But, your youth is what your bigger clients are looking for. They want a balance of experience and "freshness," freshness meaning that they hope you won't be tied into standards and will think "outside of the box". Of course, to them that just means pretty and flashy, but tell them out of the box.
Okay, I'll make that a priority.superdezign wrote:NOTE: I have got all of my freelance clients from recommendations, but my first clients came from me forcing myself to strike up conversation with at least 3 new people every day in college. Whenever someone show any interest in what you do, you've found a potential lead.
So you would _not_ recommend freelancing? I've looked around where I'm going to be, and there aren't any on-site jobs I could find. Is it possible to get a part-time job with a company over the internet only?alex.barylski wrote:I tried the freelance thing in my 20's and eventually concluded it was no way to make a living. It takes a equal dedication to running a business as it does learning about development. It's not something that comes easy to most developers which is why so many fail at it.
How does working as a company do that? Do they just expect less?alex.barylski wrote:At least when operating under the guise of a agency you get time off. In the world of freelance if your not very clear up front of what your policies are, some of your client will assume they can chat you up at insane hours, you become almost a business partner but with no real vested interest in the business so you lose and they lose because you will eventually drain yourself and quit cold turkey.
That's good to know, thanks.alex.barylski wrote:As for the minor thing...some might be reluctant to hire someone to youthful due to inexperience. But if you can walk the walk and talk the talk, you should be able to sell ice to an eskimo and deliver on that, so age is not a factor at all. Good luck!
Hm. Preferably, I'd like to work with companies as a contractor, and less working with people/small businesses. Does the condition of being a freelancer improve under those circumstances?John Cartwright wrote:Only got a minute so this will be brief, but I completely agree with Alex. Simply being associated with the word "freelancer" is taking two steps backwards unfortunately. It seems to have a direct relationship with "cheap" for the most part, even though that is not the case. Most freelancers I've come across (including formerly myself) would charge more than most companies would quote (which would shock many clients). The ones that did stick around were the ones who realized the benefits of bringing in "contractors" and saw the value in it.
Alright, I'll probably do that.John Cartwright wrote:My advise would be to incorporate yourself (it's only a few hundred bucks) and brand yourself as a company (not an individual).
- Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Just last week I bought the domain jonah.name. What potential do you think that has?
- greyhoundcode
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Hmm. Something like this is perceived differently by different people. Depends on how you're branding yoursef: "My Name is Jonah" with the strapline "...and I build top notch web apps" might work with that - it's a tricky question and a personal one, too.
My website has a .net TLD and I deliberately (though stupidly) left the URL off my business cards, thinking that people would be smart enough to extract it from my email address. Nope, too much of a struggle for some it seems, and some even go to the .com alias instead, which I thankfully own though I don't actively use it, and are redirected from there.
I'm rambling a bit here, but I suppose my point is that it's very hard to put yourself inside the minds of your customers. That's what you're doing here of course, so are other developers part of your target audience?
My website has a .net TLD and I deliberately (though stupidly) left the URL off my business cards, thinking that people would be smart enough to extract it from my email address. Nope, too much of a struggle for some it seems, and some even go to the .com alias instead, which I thankfully own though I don't actively use it, and are redirected from there.
I'm rambling a bit here, but I suppose my point is that it's very hard to put yourself inside the minds of your customers. That's what you're doing here of course, so are other developers part of your target audience?
- greyhoundcode
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
One other thing I'd add - and this is not a reflection on that domain name, by any means - but something I've learned the hard way is don't throw good money after bad. It's a small cost in the scheme of things so if you decide you're not happy with it, dispose of it.
Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
My suggestion: network, network, network. That's "getting your name out there". Networking sounds like formally visiting network events but is not (only) that. It's getting your name known on forums, on your website/blog, letting everybody you know know what kind of work you do, etc. And do good work. Happy clients are your best advertising. If I look at the clients I have right now, almost all of them came to me via previous clients. It also makes "winning" projects easier. If someone has to pick a developer and has three choices: one from someone he knows is good and two from random quotes he got. Even if you're more expensive, he's more likely to pick you. By having asked for quotes elsewhere he is, in his mind, satisfied that he did a good comparison. But deep down he already picked you because his friend/colleague told him that you did a good job.
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alex.barylski
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Sure it is, if you can find a client willing to pay you by the hour for whatever you feel your worth a lot of freelancing issues resolve themselves. Most clients want fixed estimates though, so you better have a good explanation.So you would _not_ recommend freelancing? I've looked around where I'm going to be, and there aren't any on-site jobs I could find. Is it possible to get a part-time job with a company over the internet only?
Expect less?? No, but a business has policies in place that are implemented to protect said business from being raped or abused by a more business savvy client. I can't count the number of times I've bailed on a client because I wasn't being paid and the project was incomplete and both of us ended up losing. In my later years I have lost count of the number of times I've had clients contact me because something similar happened to someone else and I turned the project down because the budget wasn't there.How does working as a company do that? Do they just expect less?
In my experience, new-ish developers and over eager business tend to jump into agreement without really doing their research or having an understanding of what *really* is required. A real business would have a team of people, who are paid fair and work towards a common goal.
A team, plus office space, plus company costs, benefits, etc. A business will charge 35g for an iPhone app that some freelancer might quote only 5g for freelancer.com. Will they be of the same quality? Probably not, will to a cash strapped business 5g is much cheaper than 35g.
Keep in mind that as a business, you have a minimum size/type of client you can accept anything else is a waste of time, it's this market that freelance developers tend to enter/enjoy - which is why you get screwed over so badly as a freelancer - at least I did - it's taken me years to learn and relearn enough business sense to implement protective policies so that doesn't happen when I accept new jobs.
Might I suggest partnering with someone - a team looks more credible and will scare off money starved businesses looking for the "best" deal.
Significantly, they understand software far better than avergae joe. That being said, if you can get them to provide tasks with assigned time slots so you have an idea as to what they expect and from experience you will quickly gain knowledge of whether they are within your capabailities.Hm. Preferably, I'd like to work with companies as a contractor, and less working with people/small businesses. Does the condition of being a freelancer improve under those circumstances?
Problem is, finding those companies willing to outsource. You will have to really work at the trust factor, not to mention find agencies that don't have (or enough) in house talent.
Cheers,
Alex
Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Interesting to read how widely different experiences are between people here.
Alex makes some good points.
A lot comes down to how you find clients and what kind of clients they are, I think. My experience is that the "closer" clients are to my circle of relations/people I know, the better the experience. The unfamiliar clients, who found their way to me by some google search of telephone book, have often been the more difficult ones (if it came to starting a project at all, in many cases not).
From the start, you should be very critical as to who you work with. In the first meeting you have with someone, that person wants to know if you are the right person to build their website/app/script. But at the same time, you have to discover whether it's a potential good client and project. The problem is that you might be tempted to not be critical in the beginning, because you really want to do some/any work. Be careful with that.
Alex makes some good points.
A lot comes down to how you find clients and what kind of clients they are, I think. My experience is that the "closer" clients are to my circle of relations/people I know, the better the experience. The unfamiliar clients, who found their way to me by some google search of telephone book, have often been the more difficult ones (if it came to starting a project at all, in many cases not).
From the start, you should be very critical as to who you work with. In the first meeting you have with someone, that person wants to know if you are the right person to build their website/app/script. But at the same time, you have to discover whether it's a potential good client and project. The problem is that you might be tempted to not be critical in the beginning, because you really want to do some/any work. Be careful with that.
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alex.barylski
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Perhaps, in my case though, I have never had any connections, or any mentor, so I worked from the ground up. For that reason I have worked with countless "less than ideal" clients in my illustrious career. :pA lot comes down to how you find clients and what kind of clients they are, I think. My experience is that the "closer" clients are to my circle of relations/people I know, the better the experience.
My biggest issue, was seeking employment/clients when unemployed. Big mistake!!! Desperation will influence your decision making and you might accept projects which are waaaay out of your reasonable limits, in which case, both you and your client eventually lose.The problem is that you might be tempted to not be critical in the beginning, because you really want to do some/any work. Be careful with th
You need to find a client(s) where it's truly a win-win proposition for both of you.
I was lucky enough my first client was generous and even flew me down to Texas to meet with him. Several others after that however, not so great.
Cheers,
Alex
- Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
What kind of policies? Could you list a few?alex.barylski wrote:Expect less?? No, but a business has policies in place that are implemented to protect said business from being raped or abused by a more business savvy client. I can't count the number of times I've bailed on a client because I wasn't being paid and the project was incomplete and both of us ended up losing. In my later years I have lost count of the number of times I've had clients contact me because something similar happened to someone else and I turned the project down because the budget wasn't there.
That's a difficult cycle to get into; I've never had any real "development" clients before, besides a little project for Christopher.matthijs wrote:If I look at the clients I have right now, almost all of them came to me via previous clients.
I would like that.alex.barylski wrote:Might I suggest partnering with someone - a team looks more credible and will scare off money starved businesses looking for the "best" deal.
alex.barylski wrote:I was lucky enough my first client was generous and even flew me down to Texas to meet with him. Several others after that however, not so great.
Thanks for allowing my to draw from your wellspring of knowledge, gentlemen
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alex.barylski
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
Service guarantees, etc.What kind of policies? Could you list a few?
How long do you maintain software? At what point do bugs stopped being fixed probono? Do you charge for phone discussions (aka: consultations - many clients will assume this is zero cost).
Without post-secondary it's a constant uphill battle. The most important thing school will do for you, is not educate you, most developers are interested enough to accomplish that alone. It's the contacts and connections that matter most, more so than credentials.That's a difficult cycle to get into; I've never had any real "development" clients before, besides a little project for Christopher.
I would recommend avoid using freelancing sites (ie: freelancer.com) you will work for peanuts and be treated like a circus monkey to boot. Find clients on your own, apply with a simple email. Problem with this approach, is most of your emails will be regarded as spam and deleted, even if you emphasize your American, etc. Outsource developers sell themselves on the same basis, most people know and realize it's a fraud.
p.s-Just curious, but what is your experience level? I know you've worked with Chris for a while, presumably in Skeleton MVC. Do you have strengths in XHTML/JavaScript? jQuery/Prototype/extJS? Drupal/Joomla/etc???
Mastering a few of those won't hurt your chances of landing freelance gigs. I occassionally get requests that I can't or won't accept, but if the price was right and you could fill in the blanks, well who knows.
Cheers,
Alex
- Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing
I feel like I'm quite skilled with PHP at this point. Yes, we've been working with Skeleton; getting a _lot_ done. Yeah, lots of experience with valid, semantic HTML under my belt. Done plenty of Javascript, a bit of jQuery/Mootools, though nothing with Prototype or extJS. Haven't really worked with any PHP software (frameworks, CMSs, etc.), but I'm planning on working with those in the near future to familiarize myself with them.alex.barylski wrote:p.s-Just curious, but what is your experience level? I know you've worked with Chris for a while, presumably in Skeleton MVC. Do you have strengths in XHTML/JavaScript? jQuery/Prototype/extJS? Drupal/Joomla/etc???
That would be really coolalex.barylski wrote:Mastering a few of those won't hurt your chances of landing freelance gigs. I occassionally get requests that I can't or won't accept, but if the price was right and you could fill in the blanks, well who knows.