Suggestions On Freelancing

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Bill H
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by Bill H »

they're probably not about to rip anyone off
It isn't a question of "ripping anyone off" and I have never written a contract with that issue in mind. If that is the objective of the contract then I don't write it -- I turn down the job and walk away.

The question is what happens if something goes wrong. The contract is to decide how a dispute or misunderstanding is resolved. If you have a contract which is entirely one sided, then there is an ethical problem. Suppose you had a lease with a landlord which says that the tenant was bound for one full year and could not leave without paying the full year, but that the landlord could throw the tenant out at any time without notice. That contract protects the landlord, but it does not protect the tenant, so why on earth would the tenant sign it?

Similarly, if you as a minor sign a contract which obligates your client to makes payments, but which cannot be enforced against you, then you are doing something which is ethically questionable. If a question arises about the work at any time you have recourse to court, but your client does not. I don't care about your intentions, you are placing your client in an unfair position, and with all the best intentions in the world that is ethically questionable.

Somebody wants to do work for me and says he in invulernable to action should he default I don't give him my money, I tell him to take a long walk on a short pier.
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Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by Jonah Bron »

I meant that as something of a joke... guess it wasn't too funny :) I certainly understand what you're saying, though I'm unsure as to how to address it.
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greyhoundcode
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by greyhoundcode »

That's what lawyers are for; a good piece of advice I received recently was to run over more things with a lawyer. Sometimes it can (potentially) save you more money than you spend on consultation.
alex.barylski
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by alex.barylski »

What do you mean by "agencies"?
Brick and mortar businesses with dedicated full time staff, that pay monthly rent, benefits, etc to employees. Separate from a group of freelancers who partner together and claim to be an agency. :p
What am I now, the industry guinea pig?{/quote]

No, but from what I can gather you would be considered an entry level developer. After 3-5 years with a single company you move into an intermediate position, after 8-10 you typically become a senior developer, depending on the company your with. From here you move into system architect or project management type positions.

Junior Developer: 32-42K/year
Intermediate: 42-48K/year
Senior: 48-68K/year

These are what I base my experiences on, of course, they are no way a accurate statistic on the average salaries, but I do spend a great deal of my time looking at other opportunities in my free time, just so I know where I stand and whether I should ask for a raise or leave. :p
I remember somebody around here saying he charged $125/hour. Don't remember who it was though...
I could tell you I charge $5000/hour but until you see my truck, my apartment and more importantly my debt and loans, you really have no clue what I make. In this case, actions speak much louder than words.

Developers make 80-120K when they land that dream job at Google, Facebook, etc as a senior programmer working with other brilliant minds. Unless you have a masters degree in CS you won't even step foot in those buildings. The other way is to become a sucessful entrepreneur and build a name for yourself like Dries (Drupal), Matt (WordPress), Chriss Shifflett (Security/Speaker), etc. Those guys will spend more time speaking and coaching than writing code so figure out what you like more and run with it.

There is very little money to be made in writing software alone, especially now it's so easy to outsource to some CS graduate in India for less than minimum wage in my city.

Cheers,
Alex
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greyhoundcode
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by greyhoundcode »

alex.barylski wrote:There is very little money to be made in writing software alone, especially now it's so easy to outsource to some CS graduate in India for less than minimum wage in my city.
True. As an aside, however, I recently acquired a client for whom I basically perform QA on work done by his offshore developers; made me wonder if that might be a niche market in itself (ie "on-shore" QA targeting offshore development).
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John Cartwright
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by John Cartwright »

alex.barylski wrote:
When I'm making a bid or just charging hourly, my rate is $45/hr. Is that reasonable?
If you can charge $45/hour your doing very well for yourself. I start new developers at about $15-18/hour and raise to $20-25 after 3-5 years of experience with the same company. Until your managing a team of developers, you plateau at about 48-50K/year.
While I do agree that once you are leading developers, you can expect a much larger salary range, but 48-50k is IMO low. Keep in mind that you generally categorize developers base on their seniority. I.e., a senior developer making 50k a year is about half. For a junior/intermediate, that is fairly reasonable.

As for $45/h rate, that is reasonable also considering the additional costs others have spoken about. When dealing with recruiting agencies, you'll often find people with the same experience earning sometimes twice the rate.. it's literally whatever you can get away with when negotiating.
Developers make 80-120K when they land that dream job at Google
They earn more than that.
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flying_circus
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by flying_circus »

alex.barylski wrote:I could tell you I charge $5000/hour but until you see my truck, my apartment and more importantly my debt and loans, you really have no clue what I make. In this case, actions speak much louder than words.

Developers make 80-120K when they land that dream job at Google, Facebook, etc as a senior programmer working with other brilliant minds. Unless you have a masters degree in CS you won't even step foot in those buildings. The other way is to become a sucessful entrepreneur and build a name for yourself like Dries (Drupal), Matt (WordPress), Chriss Shifflett (Security/Speaker), etc. Those guys will spend more time speaking and coaching than writing code so figure out what you like more and run with it.

There is very little money to be made in writing software alone, especially now it's so easy to outsource to some CS graduate in India for less than minimum wage in my city.

Cheers,
Alex
Alex,

As with some others here, I must respectfully disagree with you.

I realize there are exceptions to every rule, but my previous room mate dropped out of school, didnt know what a caboose is, became a VERY young father, yet makes a very solid 6 figures a year doing web development. To top things off, he only works maybe half the year and turns down work every day because he wants to work on building his game engine for iPhone apps. He does this because he sells himself at what he feels he is worth. Wether we feel he is worth that much or not, is irrelevant, because we arent hiring him. He routinely lands big projects for big corporations.

All I am trying to say is that the lifestyle you want is out there, if you are willing to work for it, and not waste time. I know I am guilty of squandering time with small fish when I should be out there chasing the larger ones. A number is only a number, and that number doesnt matter so long as it makes the client a slightly larger number. Would you spend $100,000 to make $110,000? A 10% return is reasonable in todays market, especially if you dont have to do any of the work. It's more about value than it is about cost.
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Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by Jonah Bron »

Lots of excellent information. Let me just ask this then: what would be some optimal (possible) business situations for a minor student, i.e. yours truly?
matthijs
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by matthijs »

I would just start doing some jobs. Start building things for people. From non-profit work for a family member who needs something done to bigger good-paying jobs you get, whatever they are. You have to start somewhere. You have your computer and your skills, that's all you need. If you have a few spare hours, make a business card to hand out to people. Slowly you discover what you like, how to get bigger and better projects, you get things organized for yourself, etc.

The only thing you might be careful with is the legal/jurist status of what you do for people. So if you do build a big e-commerce site for example or a website dealing with sensitive personal data, I'd be careful with what you take on.
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Jade
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by Jade »

Search for contract law + minors + the state you live in. Most states allow the contract but it's legally unenforceable.
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Jonah Bron
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Re: Suggestions On Freelancing

Post by Jonah Bron »

matthijs wrote:I would just start doing some jobs. Start building things for people. From non-profit work for a family member who needs something done to bigger good-paying jobs you get, whatever they are. You have to start somewhere. You have your computer and your skills, that's all you need. If you have a few spare hours, make a business card to hand out to people. Slowly you discover what you like, how to get bigger and better projects, you get things organized for yourself, etc.
I have been doing that somewhat... soon I'll be able to engage in it more actively.
matthijs wrote:The only thing you might be careful with is the legal/jurist status of what you do for people. So if you do build a big e-commerce site for example or a website dealing with sensitive personal data, I'd be careful with what you take on.
Definitely keep that in mind.
Jade wrote:Search for contract law + minors + the state you live in. Most states allow the contract but it's legally unenforceable.
Sounds like it's what they/you were/are saying: it's legal, but not enforceable.
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