HTML5 hype
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Re: HTML5 hype
What I don't understand, and maybe this is because I'm more of a programmer than a designer, is how arbitrarily some of the standards are implemented.
Such as a certain version of IE rendering the box model differently.
W.T.F.
From a logical perspective, if I tell a font to be 12px, it should be 12px. Not 13px as in some versions of Opera.
If I apply a style of 10px margin-left to an element, then it should have a left margin of 10px.
I really don't care what the standards are. I just want the browser to put elements where I tell them they should be.
Such as a certain version of IE rendering the box model differently.
W.T.F.
From a logical perspective, if I tell a font to be 12px, it should be 12px. Not 13px as in some versions of Opera.
If I apply a style of 10px margin-left to an element, then it should have a left margin of 10px.
I really don't care what the standards are. I just want the browser to put elements where I tell them they should be.
Re: HTML5 hype
I fully understand all the frustration. However, I don't see how else it could be. It's the nature of software development. My operating system evolves, my browser updates every few weeks, all my applications I have installed update, PHP evolves, MySql, Zend Framework updates, etc etc etc. It is never certain if everything works together perfectly. Maybe it's better for me to wait to upgrade to OS X Lion because some of my other software is not compliant, etc. Dealing with things upgrading and checking what works with what is a big part of my daily job. Just yesterday I discovered that one of my ZF apps didn't work anymore because the server got upgraded (new PHP version).
The fact that it is a real open development process makes it even more understandable that things go the way they go. There isn't a single big company behind the development. All browser developers and other developers have to work together to get things done. It amazes me the specs even develop so fast as they do and reasonably well.
I sure hope the open development process keeps up the pace. I would not want to see some big company step up, put a single standard in place and have the web switch to that proprietary standard. Like Facebook becoming the web. Or a Flash-like language being the standard, forcing everybody to buy and use Adobe products.
The fact that it is a real open development process makes it even more understandable that things go the way they go. There isn't a single big company behind the development. All browser developers and other developers have to work together to get things done. It amazes me the specs even develop so fast as they do and reasonably well.
I sure hope the open development process keeps up the pace. I would not want to see some big company step up, put a single standard in place and have the web switch to that proprietary standard. Like Facebook becoming the web. Or a Flash-like language being the standard, forcing everybody to buy and use Adobe products.
Re: HTML5 hype
I've seen many "real" open developments that follow a proper development cycle: Specify, Design, Test, Qualify, Send to Product to Public. Don't get hung up on the idea that control means one private company doing the job. I've seen this implemented for things that are much more difficult and more companies involved than HTML5, like the cellular industry for example.
@califdon and @christopher I spent many years working with specification groups on a number of technologies with many competing companies involved spending billions. So I do have some experience here and it does work and is still being done today. However the internet software industry is probably about 10 years behind in maturity from other hardware/software groups. But then I've never worked at an internet software company, so my guess is based strictly on their products' performance when rendering html and its layers. I would continue to guess that these companies resist the extra burden of quality controls due to cost, lack of customer demand for it (web designers take the heat not browsers) and it has an initial slow down of development until the processes are mature (after which studies show they end up paying for themselves and decreasing development time while increasing product quality).
If the spec group for HTML5 started a compliance certification and froze versions of the spec for compliance testing and certification. This could be as simple as an HTML5.1 acid test score on some website. Yes IE9.1.2 passes. Congratulations Microsoft, you can declare you're certified and we'll add you to our official database.
If the browser can't draw a box to the right size per spec., no certification is issued until it passes the acid tests.
Simple basic CMMI procedures and SEI level 5 controls here would save an entire industry of coders a lot of lost hair and make HTML5 much more attractive to adopt. It would also benefit the browser people too. Just think if you could query the browser for its compliance level and then use that feature set instead of testing every single thing before using it with every single flavor of browser. There are whole packages out there now for HTML5 just to help tell you what the client browser can and can't do. It's stupid.
Programmers unite for better quality standards! Finalized Specifications! Compliance certifications! Join #OccupyHTML5! hahaha.
@califdon and @christopher I spent many years working with specification groups on a number of technologies with many competing companies involved spending billions. So I do have some experience here and it does work and is still being done today. However the internet software industry is probably about 10 years behind in maturity from other hardware/software groups. But then I've never worked at an internet software company, so my guess is based strictly on their products' performance when rendering html and its layers. I would continue to guess that these companies resist the extra burden of quality controls due to cost, lack of customer demand for it (web designers take the heat not browsers) and it has an initial slow down of development until the processes are mature (after which studies show they end up paying for themselves and decreasing development time while increasing product quality).
If the spec group for HTML5 started a compliance certification and froze versions of the spec for compliance testing and certification. This could be as simple as an HTML5.1 acid test score on some website. Yes IE9.1.2 passes. Congratulations Microsoft, you can declare you're certified and we'll add you to our official database.
If the browser can't draw a box to the right size per spec., no certification is issued until it passes the acid tests.
Simple basic CMMI procedures and SEI level 5 controls here would save an entire industry of coders a lot of lost hair and make HTML5 much more attractive to adopt. It would also benefit the browser people too. Just think if you could query the browser for its compliance level and then use that feature set instead of testing every single thing before using it with every single flavor of browser. There are whole packages out there now for HTML5 just to help tell you what the client browser can and can't do. It's stupid.
Programmers unite for better quality standards! Finalized Specifications! Compliance certifications! Join #OccupyHTML5! hahaha.
Re: HTML5 hype
Maybe you can try to join the HTML5 group to help with their process? Sounds like you do know a bit about development processes. Not sure where the group members hang out but I guess you can find them in some mailing lists.
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Re: HTML5 hype
I really don't understand how you can forget the history of this? Perhap you have forgotten a little company named Microsoft? Microsoft implemented IE in competition to Netscape which dominated the browser market. Microsoft was in the unique position to destroy Netscape and make its own browser the standard -- which it did by bundling IE on Windows and using aggressive and illegal business tactics (Google "how Microsoft destroyed Netscape". There is no "arbitrary" about it.Benjamin wrote:What I don't understand, and maybe this is because I'm more of a programmer than a designer, is how arbitrarily some of the standards are implemented.
Such as a certain version of IE rendering the box model differently.
After destroying Netscape and owning the market for web browsers for a decade, Microsoft had little interest in improving the web which threatened Microsoft's core applications and OS business. Thousands and thousands of websites were designed using the flaws in IE and not being backward comparable is very difficult.
It was not until Mozilla and now Google and Apple took back market share that we even have the luxury of the dream of HTML5.
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- Christopher
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Re: HTML5 hype
so 2000-and-lateEric! wrote:Specify, Design, Test, Qualify, Send to Product to Public.
Hmmmmm ... wonder why that doesn't happen?Eric! wrote:If the spec group for HTML5 started a compliance certification and froze versions of the spec for compliance testing and certification. This could be as simple as an HTML5.1 acid test score on some website. Yes IE9.1.2 passes. Congratulations Microsoft, you can declare you're certified and we'll add you to our official database.
If the browser can't draw a box to the right size per spec., no certification is issued until it passes the acid tests.
(#10850)
Re: HTML5 hype
Oh I know who's at fault here. There's no doubt about that. Thankfully there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel now though.Christopher wrote:I really don't understand how you can forget the history of this?
Re: HTML5 hype
I'm not hopeful enough to ignore the possibility that the light is an oncoming train.Benjamin wrote:Thankfully there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel now though.
Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.
- Christopher
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Re: HTML5 hype
Agreed. I think the HTML5 process will be the transition step from the corrupt process of the past toward a slightly more level playing field and a process that gets results more like what Eric! is hoping for.Benjamin wrote:Oh I know who's at fault here. There's no doubt about that. Thankfully there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel now though.
(#10850)
Re: HTML5 hype
I really don't think so. Most non-internet software houses follow SEI controls today. It turned out that design and development went faster once a solid control system was in place than the constant fire-fighting that goes on without it. In fact many of these things have become ingrained in the system with beta testing, and software verification groups that it is second nature.Christopher wrote:so 2000-and-lateEric! wrote:Specify, Design, Test, Qualify, Send to Product to Public.![]()
I think if would it people put the demand for quality on the browsers rather than the web designers. Average Joe has no idea why some site looks like crap in his browser. If there was some stamp that said, this browser is NOT HTML5.02 compliant, then every browser's dirty laundry would be more obvious to users.Christopher wrote:Hmmmmm ... wonder why that doesn't happen?Eric! wrote:If the browser can't draw a box to the right size per spec., no certification is issued until it passes the acid tests.
I will go find the HTML5 people and pester them into shape for the benefit of all. Perhaps I'll start a HTML5 compliance certification program.
Re: HTML5 hype
Ok I found them and this is hilarious. HTML5 is really just called HTML now, forget what you know. They have decided they are so important that they overshadow ever other version and thus are now HTML period. They even say "HTML -- The living standard." There will NEVER be snapshots of the specification as it is like Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" it never stops changing. But then again, at least Whitman stopped and published it from time to time. Reading some of the comments only a few people see the train wreck coming,
I fear with the mentality of this what working group they will definitely clear the way for browser chaos and web designer hell to continue full steam. No real company is going to spend money redesigning their browser chasing a "living standard" every time they decide to grow a new arm or cut off an old one. It's a joke. They would be better off doing what MS does and doing what they want and then getting WHATWG to grow it into their spec one day.
I love their slogan: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!" And the name of their group - WHATWG as in what working group?If you’re continuously changing the specification while maintaining the same identifier, doesn’t this completely defeat the purpose of having a specification?
I fear with the mentality of this what working group they will definitely clear the way for browser chaos and web designer hell to continue full steam. No real company is going to spend money redesigning their browser chasing a "living standard" every time they decide to grow a new arm or cut off an old one. It's a joke. They would be better off doing what MS does and doing what they want and then getting WHATWG to grow it into their spec one day.
- Christopher
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Re: HTML5 hype
So when everything is fine will you admit that you just didn't understand this design/development methodology?Eric! wrote:Ok I found them and this is hilarious. HTML5 is really just called HTML now, forget what you know. They have decided they are so important that they overshadow ever other version and thus are now HTML period. They even say "HTML -- The living standard." There will NEVER be snapshots of the specification as it is like Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" it never stops changing. But then again, at least Whitman stopped and published it from time to time. Reading some of the comments only a few people see the train wreck coming,If you’re continuously changing the specification while maintaining the same identifier, doesn’t this completely defeat the purpose of having a specification?
What you are saying is that Apple, Google, Mozilla and Opera have it all wrong and don't know what they are doing. The fact is they are abandoning the DHTML/XHTML design/spec model, which for years tried to do what you are proposing, for something much more realistic.Eric! wrote:I fear with the mentality of this what working group they will definitely clear the way for browser chaos and web designer hell to continue full steam. No real company is going to spend money redesigning their browser chasing a "living standard" every time they decide to grow a new arm or cut off an old one. It's a joke. They would be better off doing what MS does and doing what they want and then getting WHATWG to grow it into their spec one day.
(#10850)
Re: HTML5 hype
I think you misunderstood me. By cutting loose any ties to versions and never setting specific goals and never having a finished document, the HTML spec has no real power anymore. This living spec concept greatly benefits manufacturers because they can do what they want, pour money into ideas they like, ignore things they don't and not even bother testing it very well. However this model doesn't serve the customers or web designers very well. Anyone wanting their site to be multi-browser compatible is going to have to be the person to fix it, yet again. Most companies in it for the long haul see a need to play nice and agree on common standards. This won't happen if there is a constantly changing set of requirements with no end. HTML version formally known as 5 was a chance to clamp down on all these new ideas, rope all the browser builders together and get them on the same page and get everyone compliant.
If this path leads to "everything being fine" I'd be delightfully shocked. I've seen this simple, "organic" spec. approach tried before, it isn't new. It is really an old concept often used by small startup companies. It works ok when there are only one or two players, but we're taking 10 or so with world wide compatibility issues -- not so good. But If I can write one complex HTML(5?) document with all the new features and multiple layers (javascript, css, etc) and every browser does the same thing then I'll have no complaints. The problem is they've been working on this since 2008 (2004 if you count SGML) and other people (as mentioned in this thread) besides me are still disinterested in pushing the "HTML version formally known as 5" on their clients.
And I've looked back at the history of XHTML and DHTML and the reason they failed had nothing to do with their processes.
If this path leads to "everything being fine" I'd be delightfully shocked. I've seen this simple, "organic" spec. approach tried before, it isn't new. It is really an old concept often used by small startup companies. It works ok when there are only one or two players, but we're taking 10 or so with world wide compatibility issues -- not so good. But If I can write one complex HTML(5?) document with all the new features and multiple layers (javascript, css, etc) and every browser does the same thing then I'll have no complaints. The problem is they've been working on this since 2008 (2004 if you count SGML) and other people (as mentioned in this thread) besides me are still disinterested in pushing the "HTML version formally known as 5" on their clients.
And I've looked back at the history of XHTML and DHTML and the reason they failed had nothing to do with their processes.
Re: HTML5 hype
I think the point is that the HTML spec is backwards compatible. So if I code a website to what currently works in most browsers, it will keep working in future browsers. Even if there are new features by then. My website will slowly be "getting old" in the sense that it doesn't have the latest bells and whistles in it. But it will still function perfectly fine.
However, suppose you had distinct versions of the specs. HTML3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 etc each with their own specific features and support. And now suppose everybody would code for the current version 5 spec. Then what incentive would there be to go to the next version? Everybody (browser makers, webdevelopers, companies) would be stuck in version 5. Browsers would not work on version 6, developers would not start using it and companies would not pay to have a "version 6" website build. Just look at all the proprietary Microsoft intranet/website stuff that still only works in IE6. It holds back everything else.
However, suppose you had distinct versions of the specs. HTML3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 etc each with their own specific features and support. And now suppose everybody would code for the current version 5 spec. Then what incentive would there be to go to the next version? Everybody (browser makers, webdevelopers, companies) would be stuck in version 5. Browsers would not work on version 6, developers would not start using it and companies would not pay to have a "version 6" website build. Just look at all the proprietary Microsoft intranet/website stuff that still only works in IE6. It holds back everything else.
Re: HTML5 hype
There's no logical connection here. v6 does not imply v5 features are not included.matthijs wrote:However, suppose you had distinct versions of the specs. HTML3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 etc each with their own specific features and support.