HTML5 hype

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Christopher
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by Christopher »

Eric! wrote:I think you misunderstood me. By cutting loose any ties to versions and never setting specific goals and never having a finished document, the HTML spec has no real power anymore.
I understood you. The point you miss is that all the previous HTML specs "had no power." Apple, Google, Mozilla and Opera just acknowledged that fact and put in place a system that will be more effective given the reality of situation.
Eric! wrote:This living spec concept greatly benefits manufacturers because they can do what they want, pour money into ideas they like, ignore things they don't and not even bother testing it very well. However this model doesn't serve the customers or web designers very well. Anyone wanting their site to be multi-browser compatible is going to have to be the person to fix it, yet again. Most companies in it for the long haul see a need to play nice and agree on common standards. This won't happen if there is a constantly changing set of requirements with no end. HTML version formally known as 5 was a chance to clamp down on all these new ideas, rope all the browser builders together and get them on the same page and get everyone compliant.
Not sure who the "manufacturers" are here? Seriously doubt the browser builders won't bother "testing if very well." I find HTML5 much more "multi-browser compatible" but we still need older browsers to fade away. Not clear what "constantly changing set of requirements" means ... requirements? HTML5 accepts the reality that there will be a continuous stream of new features. At least you are honest that you want to "clamp down on all these new ideas" ... yeah ... hate those new ideas.
Eric! wrote:If this path leads to "everything being fine" I'd be delightfully shocked. I've seen this simple, "organic" spec. approach tried before, it isn't new. It is really an old concept often used by small startup companies. It works ok when there are only one or two players, but we're taking 10 or so with world wide compatibility issues -- not so good.
I predict that most people will be "delightfully shocked" ... but you still won't be happy.
Eric! wrote:But If I can write one complex HTML(5?) document with all the new features and multiple layers (javascript, css, etc) and every browser does the same thing then I'll have no complaints. The problem is they've been working on this since 2008 (2004 if you count SGML) and other people (as mentioned in this thread) besides me are still disinterested in pushing the "HTML version formally known as 5" on their clients.
That's the dream and the problem. Not clear why you would push a HTML version on you clients?
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Eric!
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by Eric! »

The push is (was) back onto the browser makers. If you don't have a fixed spec. there is nothing they need to be compliant to. In real development there is a time where you have to stop tinkering and make everything work, so yes you do have to clamp down the goals and get it done before moving on to the next great thing (thus editions, versions, revisions were born). Creative people hate this idea because it is more fun to tinker, but it is an important part of making things work and sharing them with others. Browser developers will continue to be motivated (especially Microsoft) to work outside of the "living spec" to do something "fantastic" while ignoring the things they don't like or at least not spending much time working/testing those lessor priorities. Especially if the living spec is constantly growing as academics like to do (just take a look at the change log).

With users actually excited about getting a new version of html (and clients have pushed it on me causing me to think about it and pose this thread), it was a good chance to get the user base to demand browsers be compliant to it unlike previous HTML versions. Now it is back to an endorsed free-for-all. I'm not sure why you disagree so strongly unless you're in the business of making compatibility tools. Certainly the history of browsers not working well with the same HTML stack can't be impressive to you. And I don't see much progress with the "new" HTML (I don't even know what to call it now). Sadly I just see the effort to improve usability across platforms dissolve with HTML not having a version or a solid spec to work from. Now it doesn't even have a unique name to reference the new changes. God help us if the sub-layers (css/javascript/etc.) follows suit.

This conversation is getting pretty tedious for me as I seem to be in the minority and mostly getting attacked for every other sentience I type rather than discussing things. Don't worry I'll be happy if I'm right or wrong about this -- after all it's just HTML it's not real life. And the more complicated it gets, the more work opportunities. In the same fashion that English is living un-versioned language, HTML is probably going to end up with a lot of dialects perhaps unrecognizable between browsers. I would guess that once the basic new html features become common place then dialects will emerge and cause trouble. So I think I've said my part and only time will tell what unfolds.
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by matthijs »

Eric: don't let the conversation get tedious for you. I can only speak for myself, but in no way am I attacking you. For me a discussion (any) is a way to understand things better. Putting questions on the table and questioning things. If there are no opposing viewpoints, I don't see the value in a discussion. So actually your (opposing) explanations here are very much appreciated.

I'll have to reread your last post again and give it some thought before I can reply again (don't want to just repeat an earlier point).
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by Eric! »

No problem. By the way isn't it impossibly hard to talk about HTML5 without saying HTML5? I'm not sure how well the renaming to just HTML is going to go over.
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Christopher
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by Christopher »

Eric! wrote:This conversation is getting pretty tedious for me as I seem to be in the minority and mostly getting attacked for every other sentience I type rather than discussing things.
The disagreement seems to be about the how of HTML5, not the what. And a general disagreement on how much specification makes sense. I think the Apple, Google, Mozilla, etc. have decided to not make the perfect be the enemy of the good. We are moving into a post-Microsoft world for HTML. No, it won't be perfect ... but it will be better I think.
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Re: HTML5 hype

Post by Eric! »

Having worked at Microsoft (not the browser group) and similar large companies, I can tell you they have their technology road maps of where they want to be in 3-5 years and how they are going to dominate market share and generate revenue. If there is no longer a fixed specification that the average Joe wants them to be compliant with, they won't spend much R&D on it because they have their own plans. They have lost a lot of market share over the years so they will try to do things off the spec. in isolation for a wow factor. However if the market forces them they will refocus on beating other browsers at compatibility. After seeing the details of how the new HTML is rolling out, I see the market loosing the power of compliance and them (and perhaps others) going their own way in a hurry. (Herein lies the argument about the "what" of HTML5 coming from the "how" of HTML5).

There is a weird split in the people working on this. W3C publishes their HTML5 logo almost the same day Ian Hickson changes the development model and gets rid of HTML5 adding
Ian Hickson wrote:Since the W 3C is still focused on getting HTML5 to last call, I'll
maintain a WHATWG copy of the HTML spec that matches what the W3C HTML WG
is working on:

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/

I've updated the FAQ's explanation of what specs exist, in case you want
to get an overview (it's getting somewhat complicated!):
So W3C wants a fixed 5.0 spec and is working towards it and WHATWG is doing the opposite. If they think it's complicated now, wait until designers have to try to track down compatibility issues in the w3c html5 spec versus the living html spec. Just for fun try running the highly experimental html5 validation tool on google.com http://validator.whatwg.org/ compared to forcing experimental html5 with http://validator.w3.org/
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