Page 1 of 4

HTML5 hype

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:12 am
by Eric!
I haven't spent much time looking at HTML5 (ok really I've only read this), but there seems to be a lot of speculation that it will replace a number of technologies like flash and javaFx. Will it really be that big and truly multi-platform or will it be like trying to get IE6 to work? Is this something I should start learning now to keep up with the teenagers or am I too late even just asking this question?

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:45 pm
by califdon
I am certainly no expert on HTML5, but I do believe it is a major step in web protocols. Implementation in browsers is still somewhat mixed, but it looks to me like it is advancing with every new version of each browser. Chrome, Safari, and Opera are pretty close to compliant, Mozilla isn't far behind, and good old IE is even coming into line begrudgingly. In addition to many cool additions, like text shadows and rounded corners, it has a potentially useful "canvas" element that lets you draw shapes, and a vastly simpler way to embed audio and video.

The only question is the timing of widescale implementation. At what point in time can you safely assume that nearly all of your viewers will be using a browser that is sufficiently compliant so that your page will be acceptable? Even now, you can write an HTML5 page but don't include any of the features that would be unacceptable in an older or non-compliant browser.

Learning it should be very easy. It takes all of HTML4 and simply adds to it. I recommend that you check out a few of the online tutorials.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:13 pm
by Eric!
That's all great if the browsers are compliant. I like all the new features, in fact I think it will make php much more powerful in a variety of aspects. However I dread battling browsers versions with 2d/3d graphic issues, css is bad enough. I have a hard time believing flash or javafx wouldn't be an easier more controlled environment than allowing the client to render it. Who knows?

Anyone know when is HTML5 going to be finalized?

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:23 pm
by matthijs
That's the thing: it never will be finalized. Just like any other web technology. So there's also no point in waiting to start using it. Just include the HTML5 doctype (finally one you can remember) in your docs and start implementing the features you find useful in your websites.

Depending on the project, its goals, the audience, etc you will be able to use more or less of the new stuff. Depending on the project you can choose a different strategy to make sure the site is usable/accessible in browsers not supporting certain features.

As for flash: I think it's really on the way out or at least down

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:32 pm
by Jonah Bron
Yes, HTML5 is definitely quite an advancement. Not only does it cover advancements in HTML semantics and CSS3, but the new Javascript APIs are awesome. Not having to have a third-party plugin for websites is great; it's definitely a large nail into Flash's coffin.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:16 am
by Eric!
I'm ok with the browser turning into an OS and I like what HTML5 offers. But it seems for it to best serve the public (and people writing code for them) there has to be a fixed standard as a baseline. Stuff like flash and javafx have a defined working environment that the browser is ignorant of so if a designer gets those apps running well, then they'll work on other browsers.

If HTML5 is a specification that is never finalized then how are browsers going to be compliant? Especially with MS's my way or the highway attitude. For example look at the state of HTML5 inputs for forms for various browsers, now imagine the compatibility problems with complex 3d graphics....

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:20 am
by matthijs
But Flash is no standard at all, that's the problem. It's a proprietary thing from a single company. It could just as well happen that one day on on certain popular phone and tablet it isn't supported. O wait that just happened for real.

The nice thing about webstandards is that they are real standards. Maybe slowly developed, but once supported widely they are supported for a long time. A modern webbrowser can easily render 10-20 yr old HTML websites.

So there is a solid baseline. It just moves up little by little

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:40 pm
by pickle
I know I'm not really adding to the conversation, but this is a pet peeve of mine: HTML5 != CSS3 != Javascript

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:09 am
by matthijs
Yes, that distinction is important. They are separate layers used to build websites. The base is (should be) some form of HTML/HTML5. The style layer on top of that is CSS. The behavior layer on top of that again is the script layer.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:46 am
by Eric!
I was hoping more to strike up a conversation about the power of browsers growing so dramatically to support HTML5 and how it seems a bit like letting a bull loose in a china shop because it seems the standards are "never finished" and only voluntary. I'm a bit leery of learning and using new technologies until they have settled out because I've been burned many times by diving in head first. It seems no one here really cares about that aspect and it bugs me that HTML5 has been getting a lot of hype (in my opinion) for future web applications.

Perhaps one obvious advantage of pulling the GPU power into the browser is maybe the other layers like CSS and Javascript will run faster as the performance of a browser as an OS becomes more of a focus. I used to write astrophysics programs in javascript so there were never any OS issues between users, but wow, were they slow and I gave up doing that quickly!

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:45 am
by pickle
To be honest, it has bothered me as well how much people (designers mostly) are pushing HTML5. Yes it's great if you have a captive audience of users with browsers that support it. However, there are still a lot of browsers out there that don't. Those people are left out of the loop unless you also include a shim for backwards compatibility - which only adds to page bloat. It seems the people that are pushing html5/css3/javascript are only interested in making things shiny, not making them well.

I posted some code once on Stack Overflow using the xhtml1.1 doctype & someone asked me why on earth I would use that & not html5. My response was that xhtml1.1 was the latest published, ratified spec.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:44 am
by matthijs
It's true that there's some hype involved. But I would say that how much "hype" exactly depends on what sources you read. Maybe the popular web magazines, weblogs or marketing magazines are hyping it. Like they do with everything. I just read the serious weblogs of people (designers and developers) working on real projects and explaining what they use, how and what they don't use (yet).

My take on it: CSS3 is already there. It's widely used, widely supported and is very useful. HTML5 is also there, some features are well supported, others less so. Every browser version out there understands the HTML5 doctype. So using that works fine. Then what you decide to use after that is your choice, depending on the project you can use more or less.

You also don't have to "learn HTML5 and CSS3" at once. Just use a few widely supported features that work now or which you can use right now on a specific project you're working on. Not sure about you guys, but the way I learn things is by using feature by feature. I have -yet- never used background gradient so I would not know the syntax of that. I have used border-radius in different projects, so I know the syntax of that. And I know that some browsers not supporting that CSS3 feature have a nice fallback of square borders. No problem there.
For HTML5 I have used some features in personal projects. In pro projects it depends on the constraints how much I have used.

Eric, I would not be afraid of learning (the basics of) HTML5 and CSS3 and not being able to use it in the future. You will be able to. Browsers will support it, more and more. There are some features, like the new flexbox model in CSS3 which are in very active development and which will change a bit before being implemented. So you can skip those for now. Just build sites and use what you can now.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:43 pm
by califdon
I share the viewpoint expressed so well by Matthijs. I would just add that for anyone who is competent in HTML4, CSS2, and Javascript, the HTML5/CSS3 learning curve is very low, except for one aspect: knowing what various browsers do and don't support. IMHO, it is well worth devoting a little time to keeping up with that aspect. The payoff is that, when used intelligently, you can add attractive and useful features to your web designs with almost no extra effort. To me, that's worth investing a little time to keep up with the constantly shifting implementation landscape.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:18 pm
by flying_circus
pickle wrote:To be honest, it has bothered me as well how much people (designers mostly) are pushing HTML5. Yes it's great if you have a captive audience of users with browsers that support it. However, there are still a lot of browsers out there that don't. Those people are left out of the loop unless you also include a shim for backwards compatibility - which only adds to page bloat. It seems the people that are pushing html5/css3/javascript are only interested in making things shiny, not making them well.

I posted some code once on Stack Overflow using the xhtml1.1 doctype & someone asked me why on earth I would use that & not html5. My response was that xhtml1.1 was the latest published, ratified spec.
This is basically my stance too. The bulk of my web development is small to medium business websites. In the interest of keeping my support ticket count low, I only use established technology. Often times this results in less bells and whistles, but I'll compromise on that every time in the name of compatibility.

HTML5 might be the next greatest thing, but I'll adopt slowly, and likely expirment with personal or other non-critical applications first.

I took a project that involved an interactive, high resolution, 3d model, but it required the use of an external plugin. Well the wheels fell off the project for the guys making the external plugin (which hasn't been updated since Firefox 2) and here I am, 5 years later, still catching heart burn with it.

On another interesting note, I was looking at my website stats the other day, and am still getting traffic on IE 5.5!

HTML5 might be neat and fun, but there is no way I'm using it on a client's website for the foreseeable future.

Re: HTML5 hype

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:46 pm
by matthijs
@flying_circus: the thing is, HTML5 is just HTML+. It's not a completely new version. It's not a new language. It's just, for the most part, the same HTML you have been writing for 10 years. With some extra features. You could take your HTML4 or XHTML website you build 4 years ago, change the doctype to the HTML5 one and suddenly you'd be using HTML5. And the website will keep working just fine in any browser I know of.
Sure, when you start using the new HTML5 features, you have to check which support there is for them. Or what the fallback will be in case something is not supported in a browser. Maybe you could use some of the new form elements. So that the people with newer browsers get to see some bells and whistles, while people using older browsers get to see plain form fields. No harm done there.