Problem with economy case in point.

Ye' old general discussion board. Basically, for everything that isn't covered elsewhere. Come here to shoot the breeze, shoot your mouth off, or whatever suits your fancy.
This forum is not for asking programming related questions.

Moderator: General Moderators

Post Reply
jbardin
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:56 am
Location: Tampa

Problem with economy case in point.

Post by jbardin »

This is a converstation that took place today over email, latest reply first...

never mind. you cannot compete with indians and russians..

they go as low as $5/hour..



-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Bardin [mailto:jbardin@hsc.usf.edu]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:37 AM
To: RROFC
Subject: RE: PHP Developer (fwd)


how cheap and for how many hours?

-Jon

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, RROFC wrote:

> THANK YOU BUT WE ARE LOOKING FOR OVERSEAS PROGRAMMERS WHO ARE MUCH
CHEAPER.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Bardin [mailto:jbardin@hsc.usf.edu]
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:48 AM
> To: RROFC
> Subject: RE: PHP Developer (fwd)
>
>
> Hello Again
>
> > WHERE ARE YOU BASED
> I am located in Tampa, FL. I would be willing to relocate if the Contract
> lasts more than a year. If not I would have no problems telecommuting and
> making periodic trips for in person meetings.
>
> > AND HOW MUCH IS YOUR HOURLY RATR?
>
> $25 USD / hr, is my base fee. That is typically for smaller 2 week (80hrs)
> contracts, larger more indepth contracts usually run $30 - $35 USD /
> hour, I would relocate for $35 USD / hour and a year long contract.
>
> I am looking forward to hearing from you again!
>
> -Jon
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon Bardin [mailto:jbardin@hsc.usf.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:34 AM
> > To: rrofc@rrofc.com
> > Subject: PHP Developer (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > My name is Jon Bardin, I am interested in working on the contract
mention
> > in your post:
> >
> > http://vancouver.craigslist.org/sof/24162982.html
> >
> > Below is a listing of answers to some common interview questions. And
> below
> > that is a listing of most of the GPL software I have written. I have
also
> > attached a file (resume.php) which should do everything required for the
> > php code test.
> >
> > Education:
> > * I am currently working towards my first degree in computer science,
but
> > if 'equivalent' means 5+ years of profesional software develop on a
myriad
> > of platforms, I feel as though my work can stand in place of a degree in
> > measuring my abilities to design,develop,deploy software solutions for
any
> > problem thrown at me.
> >
> > Experience:
> > * I began developing 'web applications' in 1998 using PHP MySQL and
Apache
> > (often refered to today as a LAMP enviroment)
> >
> > * I have full understanding of SQL and its application to relational
> > database management. And I always try to maintain clean and robust db
> > design by utilizing all 5 levels of normalization. In the past year or
so
> I
> > have grown away from RDBMS in favor of OODBMS/Object Persistence but I
> > still use SQL for the quick and easy jobs.
> >
> > * I am fluent in PHP, Ruby, Shell, Python and Visual Basic...(I dont
like
> > to go there but sometimes you have to). And who isnt a perl hacker at
> heart.
> >
> > Previous Work History:
> > * Most of my current work has been with deliminated output from a
> different
> > systems including a Bubblesheet scanner, Custom Excel Speadsheets, And
> > student registration software.
> >
> > * My time spent supporting end users has accustomed me to handling and
> > interpreting difficult problems and situations. I always try to act with
> > others in mind, and hope they do the same.
> >
> > * Does debugging 5 year old perl scripts on a Sun SparcII running
Solaris
> 8
> > count as painful enough unix experience. I have also been a avid Linux
> user
> > since 1999 (Debian slink)
> >
> > Editor:
> > * vi not Emacs
> >
> > Most of these applications have been designed and seen to completion in
> the
> > course of a couple of weeks (Except for SiGCMS which took nearly a
year).
> I
> > am confident that I could perform the task of "PHP Developer" for your
> > company for the quote price of $25 USD / hour.
> >
> > If needed I can also tarball most of these and send them your way for
you
> to
> > take a peak at, some projects have links to them that point to current
> > running installations and source... most of the rest is behind firewalls
> and
> > or no longer in use.
> >
> > SiGCMS | A CMS written in php. Organizes any type of php object
> > Linux, Apache, Mysql, PHP
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/sig
> >
> > SiG | SiG Image Gallery. A full feature image gallery/library
> > Apache, PHP
> > http://www.brevarddealers.com/SiG.php
> > http://www.brevarddealers.com/SiG.phps
> > http://www.brevarddealers.com/?archiveN ... derIndex=1
> >
> >
> > Phoogle | PHP interface to Google search results. Developed as an entry
> for
> > a php coding contest. It took first place.
> > http://www.zend.com/codex.php?id=873&single=1
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=U ... &q=phoogle
> >
> > Realty | A prototype of a realty listing site
> > Linux, Apache, Mysql, PHP
> >
> > Timecard | An electronic timecard system
> > Linux, Apache, Mysql, PHP
> >
> > Examotron | Customized reporting agent for Year II medical students at
> USF's
> > College of Medicine
> > V1. PHP, V2. VC++, V3. C#
> >
> > Labotron | A virtual lab for testing of medical students
> > Visual Basic
> >
> > Camotron | A web frontend to a usb webcam
> > Apache, PHP
> >
> > Evalotron | A simple webbased survey script
> > Apache, Mysql, PHP
> >
> > Cart | A simple session based shopping cart
> > PHP
> >
> > Filedrop | A file upload framework with built in anti virus
> > PHP
> >
> > Newman | A mass mailing script NOT FOR SPAM :P
> > PHP
> >
> > Planotron | A suite of tools related to web based calendar system
> > PHP
> >
> > Pollotron | Another web survey system
> > PHP
> >
> > Support | Web FAQ generator
> > PHP
> >
> > z0r | Web interface to a classified ads system
> > PHP
> >
> > Drop/Add | A web interface to USF's College of Medicine regristar.
> > CGI, C
> >
> > b2quiz | A simple online quiz system
> > CGI, Ruby
> >
> > Logger | A robust website tracking tool
> > CGI, PHP
> >
> > libBitField | Enumerator library
> > PHP
> >
> > Formmail | A simple form emailer
> > PHP
> >
> > Able | A prototype of a object persistent CMS system
> > PHP
> >
> > Fractal | A PHP Demo mandelbrot generator
> > PHP
> >
> > zFCEU | A port of Ultra FCEU to the arm platform
> > C, SDL, Arm, Zaurus PDA
> >
> > nutron | A diet analysis tool for the Zaurus pda
> >
> > -Jon Bardin
jbardin
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:56 am
Location: Tampa

Workers UNITE

Post by jbardin »

What type of monkey are outsourcing companies buying. And how can we change the situation before it gets worse...

How you say??

UNITE

No one work for less than $20 USD / hr.

The only thing we have to lose is our chains. Companies will continue to find cheaper and cheaper sources of IT work, until they get to a point where people will be forced to work for next to nothing to stay alive. BIG Capital has allready screwed america, we as humans cannot let them take over the only world we have to live on. How can we unite and conquor this beast... UNIONS!. There are no software developer unions registered and active to date.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/howto/

I propose a new union, I can't think of a catchy name but it should protect the rights of software design, developers, testers, deployers, supporters. Software is the final frontier, it is the highest level of work one can achieve... pure thought in an electronic form, running on a machine doing work for others. Without software, hardware would be bricks and stones. We as software people must unite and protect ourselves. We are the future of work.

Please post your thoughts.
jbardin
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:56 am
Location: Tampa

More starting points

Post by jbardin »

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/

Most of the philosophy for a software workers union exist. We just need to organize and march in the streets.

http://www.meetup.com/

And excellent tool to manage groups of people wanting to organize and meet.

http://friendster.com/

Seems like a decent social network (at least if your looking for a mate). Possibly it could have use to organize the people.
jbardin
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:56 am
Location: Tampa

Existing union

Post by jbardin »

http://www.washtech.org/wt/

The Washington Alliance of Technology Workers is an organization of high-tech workers and allies joining together to provide an effective voice in the legislative and corporate arenas, and to advocate for improved benefits and workplace rights.
McGruff
DevNet Master
Posts: 2893
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by McGruff »

I hate losing a job just as much as you but it's hard to begrudge economic trends which transfer wealth from the rich west to poorer countries.

We created a profit-first, free trade world. We can't really complain when someone beats us at our own game.

If $5 an hour isn't enough to live on, perhaps we should move to India where the cost of living is less ;)
User avatar
Weirdan
Moderator
Posts: 5978
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:13 pm
Location: Odessa, Ukraine

Post by Weirdan »

Excellent point, McGruff! ;)
jbardin
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:56 am
Location: Tampa

statistics are tricky...

Post by jbardin »

According to this site:

http://www.expatforum.com/Resources/icol.htm

The cost of living in India in 02 is only a difference of $7 dollars (93 rupees == 100 usd)... meaning that that $5 dollars is actually closer to 6-7/hr in ruppees which still isnt enough to live on. And its only going to get worse... the point isnt about cost of living, its about quality of living. Everyone should be the same, around the world... A miner in america should live the same as a miner in Zimbabwe, A php developer in india should live the same as a php developer in u.s.a.
lordvolt
Forum Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:37 pm
Location: Springfield, OH

Post by lordvolt »

If the cost of living is relatively low in difference, why is there such motivation for charging so much less for the work?

There must be something...

I thought maybe taxes were lower...but apparently not...

Strong desire for screwing up america's economy???

Im not an economist...but the more you outsource your workers, the less of the overall population has the money to buy your products....basic logic...

Outsourcing to cheaper offshore workers is a viable cost cutting solution for the very short term, but left unchecked, can be very harmful in the long run.

Its really sad to think that the skills ive built up over the last 10 years are now becoming worthless in america, and ill make more flipping burgers than writing code...
User avatar
Toneboy
Forum Contributor
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:59 am
Location: Law, Scotland.
Contact:

Post by Toneboy »

And how would someone know they're doing the work for all the hours they claim? How expensive would it be to meet, face-to-face, if asked to do so?

There are benefits to being available locally I would have thought.
User avatar
m3mn0n
PHP Evangelist
Posts: 3548
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:35 pm
Location: Calgary, Canada

Post by m3mn0n »

When it comes down to the wire, and an employer has to choose one developer apart from the rest, there isn't much choice left but to go for the lower wages. And in most cases this is a requirement by them to ensure they get the job done for less.

I think it's a disgusting move, but then again for as long as there has been competitive service offerings, there has been the "ford" and the "ferrari."

This is a very indepth subject I don't feel like getting too far into it because it's so complex. But the bottom line is, there needs to be a change.
Post Reply