Page 3 of 3
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:33 pm
by jason
The techonology is the only issue. PHP doesnt have a license that says "thou shalt not X", so why should these forums?
You make a good point, but in truth, doesn't quite work out as well as you intend it. You see, I have every right to ask a user why they want to do something. Afterall, if I choose to help someone, it's my choice whether or not I should help them. If they are doing something I don't agree with, I don't have to help them.
I agree that I think it's wrong that any moderator should close a thread because they don't agree with what the poster is trying to do (with very few exceptions, for example, someone needing help with protecting his child porn site from authorities is not going to get help from me, and I will quickly close the thread), but neither do I think it's a posters responsibility to help everyone and anyone.
Nor do I see it a problem to warn someone about the possible consequences of doing something illegal. Handing someone the code without a word of warning is not professional. At the very least, it might provide someone with some additional information they didn't have before.
Anyways, the point is that asking the question is not a problem, but banning a conversation because someone doesn't agree with it's uses is a bit extreme, and generally frowned upon.
We can take a step back and pat ourselves on the back, and say "Sure, we just built the bomb, but he is the one who set it off." Yeah, sure, then we get into a bigger dilemma, and a bigger debate.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:43 pm
by Ixplodestuff8
Mcgruff, I think your example was an extreme, I would agree that locking that thread was the right choice, but like Roja said, if someone wants to know how to mass email to people, or how to make a script that spiders the web for email addresses, then such a thread and replies would be valid, if it's truely obvious it's for spamming no one will help anyways, but if someone did give suggestion I say let them, it's their choice to help or not.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:54 pm
by Roja
jason wrote:
I agree that I think it's wrong that any moderator should close a thread because they don't agree with what the poster is trying to do (with very few exceptions, for example, someone needing help with protecting his child porn site from authorities is not going to get help from me, and I will quickly close the thread), but neither do I think it's a posters responsibility to help everyone and anyone.
Like you said - its okay for the members to discriminate, and frankly, they will. If someone sees a post about spamming, they arent likely to help.
But don't encourage the userbase to lie by moderating based on stated intent.. it will only lead to worse abusers, less information, and again - a waste of valuable time that could be used moderating topics that arent on-topic.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:55 pm
by McGruff
[to iexplode] I would not lock a thread asking about mass emails unless the poster admitted that they intended to use it for spamming - which would be unlikely.
I'm not sure there if there is any good reason to spider email addresses though. It would be foolish to imagine that anything we did here would have much impact on this or other problems but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
What if phpdn were to be sued after a particular misdeed was directly linked to advice received here?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:28 pm
by Roja
McGruff wrote:
What if phpdn were to be sued after a particular misdeed was directly linked to advice received here?
Actually, the law provides a wonderful level of protection for sites that DO NOT moderate based on intent. It lumps you into a "content provider" like AOL, and prevents those lawsuits on the grounds that it puts an undue burden on providers to "know or investigate" the potential intent of a given user.
However, as soon as you start moderating based on potential intent, then yes, your concern is totally valid - they can ask "If you were moderating based on actions like port-scanning, why didnt you stop this".
The slope is not just slippery, its got lawyers waiting at the bottom!

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:20 pm
by llanitedave
As one of the posters involved in the thread at issue, I feel like I should put in a couple of cents or so:
First, the thread admittedly got off-topic. I was not a help in that respect. I also feel Brian overreacted and took personally statements that weren't meant to be. He repeatedly accused others of missing the point, yet unipus, Roja, and myself were responding specifically, and I thought appropriately, to points that he made and to his feedback regarding them. It was basically a matter of "I agree with you in theory, but we need to be realistic about the situation". That was really all there was to it. There was no rudeness there.
This forum seems to be less tolerant of what we might call "emotional disagreement" than others I'm on. But that's as it should be. Other forums are specifically for debate and dissent -- this one is for support, learning, and assistance. And it's been a big help to me so far.
That being said, I personally would not have locked that discussion down quite so quickly. There were still positive ways it could have played out, and perhaps Brian and others could have reached some common ground, with a little more clarification.
However, I don't fault the moderator for making that decision. It was his call, and being conservative isn't necessarily a bad idea.
I give this forum a strong A for the quality of both the moderating and the expertise of the help.
I haven't checked the Volunteer or Jobs section, but I think McGruff's stated standards for that one are also quite on target.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:58 pm
by tim
(1) Posts with promises to pay later will not be allowed.
(2) In Job Hunt the poster must state a price: either for the full job or an hourly rate. If not, the post will be deleted. Everyone can at least provide a range from which to start negotiating.
(3) Businesses will not be allowed to request volunteer help. Charities, not-for-profit sites, or sites with which the programmer shares a common interest - no problem - but a business will profit financially from the coders work and must be prepared to pay for it.
Just a lil BG (not that it matters) - I did a script for a guy promosing pay-on-completion. A full blown 10 page script (didnt count all the lines, it was huge n was invovled)
Passed it on, dummy me nveer got paid for it. McGruff saw my post about this on the other topic I was invovled in. He personally private msg'ed me and asked what the name of the guy and if it was this forum that I got jipped on.
That in itself shows the moderators care. Put yourself in my shoes. 10 page script FOR nothing and you would side with him as well. As for the mods calling them liars (<span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> btw) - its them looking out for the board community to prevent things that happened to me.
Its time to view the 3d point of things and not be so blind and stupid
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:05 pm
by Roja
tim wrote:
Its time to view the 3d point of things and not be so blind and stupid
Can't tell if you are referring to me, or to yourself.

In either case, I dont think either were.
I'm well aware that its happened here on more than one occasion, I just think that the rules changes will help considerably.. until then, the moderation is confusing at best, and can be taken to be "mean" at worst.
Re: A Boycott to Protest Forum Discourtesy
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:13 pm
by tim
Roja wrote:.. anytime ANYONE posts anything to EITHER the volunteer section, or the job postings, within 4 hours (max), a mod will reply, and will almost always imply that the poster is lying about what they are offering.
I wasnt calling you stupid, n definately not myself. I was saying those who are scraping the ground for lil comebacks to bash the moderators need to view matters with different eyes. Thats all
Yes the new guidelines hopefully will put the touches needed, but as for the volunteer n job forum I hope McGruff and Patrick/other mods dont change a bit. I would hate another person to go thru the insane stunt like I did. Call it strict, call it evil, I call it helping

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:19 am
by BDKR
I'm sorry you guys but I just wanted to say something to Brain that I think may be more at the core of this. Of course I could be completely wrong, not to mention the fact that someone else may have stated exactly what I'm trying to, yet I missed it.
My apologies in advance.
<soapbox mode>
Anyway, in another thread, Brain said ...
Emotion has no place in technical discussion forums beyond the pleasure that comes from overcoming a challenge; too much emotion in discussions is part of the problem about which I posted in the first place. As is reading for understanding. Do you see the irony here?
While this makes sense from a purely logical point of view, if fails to take into account the fact that while some of us are capable of being extemely logical,
NONE of us are compeletly so! This applies to programmers as well as engineers, which both have a tendency to have a large populations of 1 or 2 paritcular character/temperment types.
That said, and keeping in mind that we
DO enjoy (which implies emotion, does it not) technical things as programmers, engineers, whatever, and each are individuals, then much of what we see as logic becomes open to interpretation by those around us who are realizing (just as we should) that our 'solutions' are most likely colored by our individual influences, desires, and upbringing.
A perfect example of our blending of emotion and technology can be seen in the motorcycling industry where many of the major companies stick to engine layouts that have been associated with their moniker since the 30's or 40's, yet year after year a new enthusiast develops a zeal for any one of those antiquated engine architectures. Some of them go back to well before our parents were born. The BMW boxer motors, Harley Davidson 60 degree V-Twins, and Ducati 90 degree V-Twins (often referred to as L-twins) all have a rather long history.
In spite of the fact that many of these architectures are still being actively developed today, all of them have some 'issue' or 'drawback'. But much of the reason they are supported is because of a combination of things like a sense of culture, tradition, individual response, and national (or brand) pride. All of which are far more emotional than logical. Issues or drawbacks be damned!
And then there are some of the newer designs which were truly sparks of creative genuis. One in particular is the oval piston. To come up with such an idea required far more than just pure logic. There had to be some creative or serendipotous process (or whatever) that was far more emotional than strictly logical.
The point that I'm trying to make is that
there is no getting away from the emotional component that drives technological advance! So to apply the template of pure logic (as if we are all Vulcan) is to stifle that irrational component that makes us all human, yet also is the very basic drive behind all of what we have (technologically speaking) today.
</soapbox mode>
Sorry about that....
Cheers,
BDKR
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:55 am
by malcolmboston
ive just noticed this post and i would just like to say
This is insane
i completely agree with the moderator's "cracking down" on people promising to pay in the future, its absolutely BS
i spent 7 months creating a whole site with so much PHP in it, i'll probably never create something so big again it had over 70,000 lines of code in over 500 pages, guess what i never got paid, i spent on average 8/9 hours a day on it over 7 months and never got a cent, and tim is moaning about 10 pages? it doesnt matter the size of the job its the complete lack of respect and gratitude. That site was easily worth a minimium of £10k, hell, ive been paid more than that for alot less
Moderators and Admin, keep this up, it needs to be stamped out.
I dont know what is up with brian but i couldnt agree more with anyone else, you've been misinformed on many many levels, these forums are by far and away the best ive ever been to (believe me ive been to alot) ive only met one person that has ever been on an "ego-trip" and he was a one-off poster funnily enough requesting paid work in the future!
I have been in many discussions on these forums and have noticed very few "bad" posts, we all get annoyed sometimes i often just post a link to further information, because im sick of answering the same questions, imagine how the moderators feel.........
my $0.02
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:59 pm
by llanitedave
BDKR wrote:I'm sorry you guys but I just wanted to say something to Brain that I think may be more at the core of this. Of course I could be completely wrong, not to mention the fact that someone else may have stated exactly what I'm trying to, yet I missed it.
<snip good essay>
The point that I'm trying to make is that
there is no getting away from the emotional component that drives technological advance! So to apply the template of pure logic (as if we are all Vulcan) is to stifle that irrational component that makes us all human, yet also is the very basic drive behind all of what we have (technologically speaking) today.
Sorry about that....
Cheers,
BDKR
Ok, here I agree with you on the content itself, but I don't think this was the point Brian was getting at. His point on emotion was not about the emotional inspiration behind one technology or another, but on the emotion of conflict that wells up in each of us when we disagree about something. Everyone seems to have a different tolerance for this. I think he's right that in a technical discussion about the pros and cons of various techniques, there really shouldn't be any reason to get personal and upset.
However, on the thread that offended him so much, the topic veered off the technical towards what browsers
should do, and to what developers
should do in response. This is no longer just technical, but involves values and philosophy. The various threads that mention the virtues and flaws of oop verses procedural programming touch some of the same nerves.
I'm sorry, but if one is going to delve into philosophical issues, one needs to be a little thick-skinned about the responses that might come back. And this DOES tie into what you were talking about above -- people get emotionally attached to one solution or another, and they tend to defend it against perceived threats in an emotional way.
While I fully agree that it's the moderator's call to step in when he/she feels that some discussion is getting emotionally out of hand, those who are participating in it need to be aware that some rough-and-tumble is going to be par for the course, and not to be too easily offended or too quick to take things personally.
That, I think, was Brian's mistake, but I don't think he was the only one who made it.
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:17 pm
by BDKR
llanitedave wrote:
His point on emotion was not about the emotional inspiration behind one technology or another, but on the emotion of conflict that wells up in each of us when we disagree about something.
Actually, that is what I was implying. After all, it's that strong inspiration or feeling that attaches us to whatever it is we choose to engage in religous conflicts about.
I think we are on the same page but you took it the last step it needed to go. If I ever need an editor, you're hired
Cheers,
BDKR
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:01 am
by Heavy
I should get banned for bringing this topic back up...
But I just gotta say some things for the good of this place:
1
People here are generally very nice. I have joined other forums/mailing lists as well, but I have been disappointed several times about the rudeness and help yourself attitude discovered. This forum teaches anyone to be nice and helpful. It is by far the best community I have come across yet. (I have stopped looking for other places to just hang out, although I am in at other forums also because many things would be off topic if discussed here.)
2
The moderators/admins are very helpful. Twigletmac and Jason even waste their time on stupid newbies like I once was. This community is better than education and they don't even bill me for it. (Not that anyone should expect such service... Maybe listening to what people say and trying to learn doing things better ways have an effect on how much help you get from these angels.)
3
The excellent php manual and this forum has taken me from just trying to understand the most basic aspects of web programming to consider security risks, efficiency, and code beauty and reusability. That's where it got me.
This is a good community!
The admins are good!
.