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A Boycott to Protest Forum Discourtesy

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:24 pm
by Brian
Since the moderators of these forums are so welcoming of blatant disregard of their own guidelines and since some of them are either unwilling or unable to participate in courteous, intelligent--or at least well-considered--discussion (most particularly, patrikG and the particularly rude and inappropriately emotional Sami), I propose a boycott of these forums.

Some will doubtless react to this suggestion by accusing me of being on a "high horse" or otherwise refusing to address the actual issue--or perhaps by simply locking this thread (after getting in the last rude word, of course)--and that is precisely part of the problem. All I want is to talk shop and to be treated politely by other participants. Unfortunately, though, that seems to be too much to ask with people such as Unipus, patrikG, and Sami using the forums, so I propose that all who value courtesy in forum discussions join me in boycotting PHPDN until such time as courtesy is valued and enforced by the moderators.

To the moderators, this is neither a joke nor trolling; I am quite serious about boycotting these forums, so please delete my account immediately.

What a sad, sad waste of something that once was great and could be again.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:38 pm
by d3ad1ysp0rk
You need to grow up. As much we'd all like a perfect world and forum, it's not going to happen. PHPDN is the closest I've found to a great forum, and I'd go as far as saying it's the best one you can find when it comes to PHP discussion.
The members are knowledgable and most of the time courteous. The few times they aren't, is usually for good reason.

This must be your first forum, because if you take the time to join a few others, you'll realize quickly, how much better this one is than any other.

I don't see where you get this image of a perfect world from, but it's not going to happen, be happy with the great job they do here, and do what you can if you do see someone being discourteous. Or Leave.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:50 pm
by d3ad1ysp0rk
Although you did not want to "Pollute" the forums with your reply (since it is garbage anyhow), I will post it anyways, because personally, I do not believe in private messages, this is a community issue and therefore the community deserves to know everything we have to say.
Brian wrote:I am sending this as a private message so I do not pollute the forum with more examples of poor forum etiquette such as what you just posted.

I need to "grow up" because I have spoken out about discourtesy? Because something has been better than some other similar things, one should not speak up about problems? If one has a problem with something, one should simply leave without addressing any problems? Your logic is faulty and your manner is very rude. In short, you are part of the problem.

The moderators have the power to clean up the forums; they simply choose to welcome bad behavior such as yours.
You fail to address my main point. You cannot expect a forum to be perfect, this is a support forum and therefore everyone, even the slightly rude people, need to be allowed to post to get help. This is not a forum for intellectual thinking, nor will it ever be. The moderators and admins welcome and promote good behaivor and etiquette, however they will not force it, and I am glad for that.
Sorry, but sometimes I don't feel like talking like I have a stick shoved up my ass 24/7.

Now for what I was TRYING to get at:
Do you partake in any other forums regularly? and may we have a link to them, to compare them to PHPDN. I would like to see this haven of polite and perfect people. Although I may not be a good enough person to make it in, I'd at least like a glimpse oh mighty one.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:25 pm
by markl999
All I want is to talk shop and to be treated politely by other participants.
I suggest you do just that. Without getting into wether i agree with you or not i've been in a similar position in the past. The internet can be impersonal at times and i used to get upset over comments made on IRC, now i just shrug it off and don't worry about it.

I use this forum first to learn from others, learn from others correcting my answers/replies and hoping i help others. And, sad though it might be, i enjoy it..it's fun ;)
Forums like this need people like you Brian. You are intelligent and can obviously put forward a point in intelligable language, i hope you can just swallow your pride and just put it behind you. These things never get settled as it's hard for people to say 'actually, you may be right...sorry' so it's best to just forget it, the internet tends to have a short memory ;) I actually find peoples rudeness, short temper, inability to say what they mean etc.. all part of a vibrant forum and it's nice to see people 'progressing' and going through a learning experience. Anyway, i didn't mean to rant but i've just realised i have :o So, Brian i hope you don't leave, you might teach me something in the future, and to miss that would be a shame.

Other Forums

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:26 pm
by Brian
Very well, "LiLpunkSkateR", I will participate here publicly this one last time before changing my password to something random that I will not keep (the nearest I can come to deleting my own account).

I do not expect for forums to be perfect, but I do think people should be polite toward each other in discussion forums as in face-to-face discussions. I do not think politeness is too much to ask of people, but clearly, there are those such as yourself who disagree with me. I, however, have no desire to participate in any forums in which discourtesy is so welcomed and tolerated as it has come to be in these. There can be no civil discourse without civility.

To answer your question, I have participated in various forums frequently or less so depending upon how busy I am with school, work, and other projects at the time, although I do usually restrict my participation to helping people with problems, discussing technical issues, and such; I just want to talk shop, not be insulted and otherwise attacked by those who choose to do such things rather than present rational arguments about points with which they take issue. You are right, of course, that most--if not all--of these other forums have their own similar problems, so of course I cannot provide a URL to a perfect forum or even one in which I can guarantee that all participants are polite all the time.

Other forums are not the issue here, though; these ones are. You see, the PHPDN forums once seemed much more pleasant and useful than they do now that a select few have decided to be particularly rude.

If you are able to overlook bad behavior so easily, that is great for you, but it is a skill I lack, so I bid you farewell and good luck. I hope your experience with these forums continues to be better than mine has lately.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:26 pm
by 1veedo
I never noticed a problem. :( , I cant posibly know what he's talkign about! I for one, enjoy this forum.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:51 pm
by phice
Yes, it would be nice to have everyone that participates with you to be exactly what you want all of the time. Too bad it'll never happen. :)

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:40 pm
by Bill H
PHPDN is the closest I've found to a great forum, and I'd go as far as saying it's the best one you can find when it comes to PHP discussion.
The members are knowledgable and most of the time courteous. The few times they aren't, is usually for good reason.
Actually, one of the main reasons I come to this forum is the all but constant courtesy of the people who populate it. I have bailed out of some other forums due to arrogance and rudeness and have been impressed with the unfailing good humor and pleasantness of the moderators and the senoir people who post here.

Edit: 4-10-04 @ 4:53pm PDT

In looking at the thread regarding CSS vs tables, the posts went through a number of points, each one courteously presenting an opinion without pointing fingers at any previous posters. The first discourteous post was by Brain himself who gratuitously insulted two previous posters:
To the who goes by "Roja", I appreciate that you are thinking, but like the treatise by the one who goes by "Unipus", your argument veers so far wayward from my points as to further plunge the discussion into tediousness (indeed, such tediousness is one of the main reasons I post so infrequently to forums such as these). I have no interest whatsoever in the debate that has developed beyond my assertions.....
Shortly after that he insults a third poster:
Congratulations on missing the point, but two other people already beat you to it.
And he accuses others of discourtesy.
:?

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:51 pm
by patrikG
Brian, keep the discussion to one thread, please (I am referrring to viewtopic.php?p=103034).
Brian wrote:To the moderators, this is neither a joke nor trolling; I am quite serious about boycotting these forums, so please delete my account immediately.
Do, man. Not I nor anyone else stand in your way. Just don't come here if that's what you want. Call it a boycott, a strike, whatever. If you want to come back, come back - I suggest after you've chilled a bit.

You want to talk shop, talk shop. This is a PHP forum, Brian, not a self-help group. The issues you are raising are your own, not the forums.

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:16 pm
by Deemo
i have recently joined the community, and personally i love this place. Personally, i value this place a lot because of its quick responses and knowledgable members. i learn something everyday, so this is heaven for a noob like me :). Sure, there are sarcastic comments (especially in the Job Hunt section), but like patrikG said, this is a PHP Forum, and lets keep it to that.

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:49 am
by twigletmac
The forum is growing daily - more people. more differences of opinion. Since we generally do not have flame wars or much trolling or many users banned (99.9% of the few bannings have been for spam). I don't recognise the forums Brian describes :? (and I've been here almost since the beginning too).

Should anyone else feel strongly about issues regarding the forums and/or how it is moderated please feel free to PM mods or admins or post suggestions in the Suggestions forum. Should anyone want their account deleted contact me as I can do this if you feel that strongly about your treatment.

Mac

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:18 am
by tim
Well I feel as if its my duty to voice my opinion here as well.

i'm far from a Guru php programmer. I willingly learn something everyday, and everyday I come to these forums to help/to learn.

Face it, as this world spins on its axis, advice and help with code wouldnt be cheap. This forum is free, free to sign-up, free to help, free to recieve help. If you visit any other forum (which i highly doubt you have) you'll see what a better community this forum is. Matter of fact, I dont even visit them anymore. This is the only php forum I come to.

Also - simple misconception of people are a valid excuse for a flame. I dont see anything 'negative' towards patrik and i've posted in many threads with him in the stew(not siding with him or anything.) I been here a lil longer than you as well for that matter.

This place is the best. So far, every question I came with has been answered.. If i needed a more deep explaining, you bet your last dollar I got it along with a bag of chips. Face it, people like mark, illusionist, Weirdan, redmonkey (he really put forth a fantastic effort to help with learn regex, which I can fluently do now) and many MANY other super intelligent developers I learn from by just reading their replies. They come here in their own time, free. what more could u ask for?

Perhaps you have a different idea of what a "good" board should be.

(sorry for the long post)

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:12 am
by hawleyjr
Well Brian, I have no empathy for you....

The majority of all sarcasm is brought on by the original postie. It gets annoying when people post things like:

Subject: Help! or Can this be done? or Question....

Well duh you have a question or need help. Start by a useful subject. And oh yeah when you post your question and talk about code but don't show any examples...How do you expect people to be able to help you? This is a community we are all here for one reason. To learn and help others. This is a free market. Don't like it...Go else where.... (Insert serious sarcasm here)

Patrik and Sami have helped me out in the past and I have read numerous postings of them helping others out as well. Ya'll keep up the good work.

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:29 pm
by andre_c
I'm curious, does anyone actually agree with Brian that the moderators "welcome disregard of the guidelines" or that any of them are rude?

(I certainly don't)

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:16 pm
by McGruff
I'm really sorry you feel that way Brian. I hope you will reconsider.

I think phpdn is pretty good most of the time. I'd have to admit to losing my temper once or twice (although I don't think that's what you're referring to).

My attitude as a moderator is to first give an individual a gentle nudge - most people will realise when they have overstepped the mark and it's best for all not to rub their nose in it. We're all human.

At the same time, if it's really necessary, I'll reach for the weapons of mass moderation.

I have looked at a tables discussion where I felt that you were being a bit abrasive and was surprised to find you had accused others of this. This is not an invitation to prolong the debate: if you really feel you have been hard done by you are free to exercise your perogative to go elsewhere.

However, I hope that you don't. Let's say no more about it and get on with the business of helping posters with their queries and discussing the fine points of programming, etc.