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working with a designer...

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:07 am
by magicrobotmonkey
So my client got an advertising firm to design a "look and feel" for their site. We had a conference call with the "designer" yesterday to talk about what I would get from him. He proceeds to tell me that all he can give me is photoshop 11 of the header and some "language" describing the look and feel. I thought me might mean CSS so I tried to find out what he meant and gives me some BS corporate speak about describing colors and stuff. I've seen a pdf of an early version of the header he designed and it sucks. He used all wierd colors I probably won't be able to emulate in HTML and it uses all these slanty lines so I can't build tables (or div/spans) and just fill them in with color.

He proceeded to try to talk the client into buying the latest adobe suite so I can do his work for him. This makes me very angry as a) I suck and designing and I'm going to have to learn all this adobe stuff and b) I'm on a tight deadline as it is.

Does this seem normal to you guys? This is my first time working with an outside designer and I was expecting like an entire layout done in HTML I could just fit with some templating stuff.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:11 am
by Grim...
I've been in this situation before.

Job one is to tell the client exactly what you just told us, after all, it's up to them what the site looks like at the end of the day, and they might be paying this 'designer' a lot of cash and just tell him to 'get the hell on with it'.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:21 am
by magicrobotmonkey
I just sent the email! I worded it a little less harshly though. So what did you do when you were in this situation? And I'm pretty sure they are paying a lot of cash as its an "Advertising" firm. Bastards!

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:31 am
by qads
the current project i am working on is something like your deal, so i made up a template class, which keeps the php code away from the designer, which means he cant break anything unless he goes into a php file...which he should't in the first place. i just play with php and he fixs the html, design errors and colors etc..

the designer doest just gives you a PSD and tells you "cya after the holidays", s/he has to put it in html pages, do the css.....get the pages looking perfect and then pass them to you, thats all part of the design.

tell the guy you expect a full design, which includes the PSD sliced up, put in html, fully working pages in other words :D.

dont worry about how the design looks, if the client likes it, then there is no problem, if the client hates it, let the designer handle it.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:41 am
by redmonkey
I've dealt with a few external design companies in the past and it is all down the type of design company.

If you go to a web deign comapny then you can/should expect original artwork and HTML/XHTML/XML/XSLT/CSS source. If the app is actually finished then you can normally hand it over to the design company and they will plug their source into it (assuming you have made it relatively easy for them to do so).

If you go to an advertising/marketing company then I wouldn't expect anymore than concept image artwork. From that artwork either yourself or a web designer needs to work with your client and the original design company to discuss the feasability of the design and make any changes/modifications as required.

If you are purely a backend programmer (and your client understands that) then you can simply have your client deal with it.

The biggest problem you are likely to encounter is the arguement of who will actualy merge to front and back ends together.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:46 am
by magicrobotmonkey
Yea, redmonkey, I guess you're right as it is an addy company not a web design. So what I told the client was that I was expecting more from the designer and with what he's currently giving me is a lot more work for me which I'm willing to do, but the price goes way up. And I'm going to have to learn as I go.. Oh well, we'll see what they say.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:08 am
by patrikG
Tell them that
1) he needs to design his stuff with the websafe palette
2) that backgrounds can't have gradients in it unless it's for intranet
3) that buying new products and splashing out tons of money because he's an idiot is stupid and unnecessary
4) that he'll have to work on a Linux box unless he learns Photoshop/Quark/Freehand etc. properly on his Mac.

P.S.: Threatening designers with taking away their Mac makes them shiver, usuallu ;)

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:53 am
by feyd
I'm betting that designer's firm is an advertising company, in which case he was probably going to give you pantone colors. The ad companies I've had to work with are always trying to get out of delivering the full package HTML templates of their design and crap.

Making your client buy the Adobe suite is entirely unprofessional, IMO.

I agree with Patrik's suggestions.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:01 am
by Weirdan
Just tell your clients that you need a design to plug your software in, not a desing concept. Design concepts are for designers, not for programmers, I'd say.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:04 am
by feyd
good point Weirdan.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:41 am
by choppsta
Ok, i've seen this situation before, programmers getting angry because things aren't going the way they think they should. Remember, these people pay your bills, be NICE to them.

What you need to do is take off the programmers hat for a moment and look at this from a management prospective.

Whether they supply mockup images, finished HTML or whatever is irrelevant. I presume when you started this project you specified the scope of the project and what you were going to deliver. It should be clear from this that you were not including doing any HTML work, just integrating it with your code. So it should be easy to speak to the client and point out that you are going to need to quote for the additional work needed. If this is the case, you should be pleased! You get to make more money!!

If this isn't the case then the client probably doesn't know what's going on and is presuming that this is all part of what you have quoted for. Without a decent spec it's going to be difficult for you to justify why this is extra work. In this situation it is YOUR responsibility, not the client or anyone else, to make good. Even if this means doing the extra work for free.

If you can manage the clients expectations effectively from the start of a project then these problems shouldn't arise and everyone will be happy. (in theory ;-) )

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:04 pm
by magicrobotmonkey
yes, choppsta, and happily for me, the first is the case and I am now letting the client know that my original quote did not include the design of the site! Luckily I had discussed with them the designer and let them know what I expected before I got this dumped on me. So, I'm telling him I'll do, but the quote will change (by quite a bit, i night add!) or he can go to the designer and get him to do it.

What I'm afriad of and was has happened a little, however, is that, what with the Designer coming from some big, presumably expensive, company, he holds the clients ear and tells him that this is all they ever do, and its always up to the programmer to lay out the site. My client being a little clueless may then believe him and get mad at me for shirking my duties. So far this hasn't happened, probably because this isn't my first project for them and they trust me know, but I dont know what'll happen when he sees my quote (even though it will probably be much less than the disigner gets for DRAWING A PICTURE!!)

What really made me mad, I guess, was the designer trying to get the client to buy this software! I mean, come on guy, its a small business, how much are they paying for you and you want them to drop more just to use your product??

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:30 pm
by xisle
...a perfect opportunity to add another phase to the project and
expand your company by bringing on a freelance web designer.

crisis as opportunity

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:44 pm
by magicrobotmonkey
or to become a designer myself!

An update: Its come out that the designer was, in fact, only contracted for the look and feel and not the design, so I've put it to the client that he either needs to add to their contract or mine the design. We'll see what he says. Maybe I can get some free software out of this!

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:42 pm
by patrikG
...or better still, some more money :)