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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:41 pm
by John Cartwright
But get this, if I hadn't said any of this what would have happened to this thread.. people saying the same things over and over.. poor css implementation, bad rending engine, blah blah.

Infact this thread has turned out very informative for myself and have taken in a lot of this. I do stand on my position that a quick google would reveal, to the microdetail, the problems with internet explorer.
If we followed that standard, we'd have to stop discussing OOP, logins, hashes, passwords, sessions, register_globals, php.ini settings..

You get the idea. Just because its heard often doesn't make it less worthwhile to discuss. If anything, the fact that IE continues to cause problems and confusion four YEARS since their last release means that developers that know why *need* to explain it so that we can continue the pressure on Microsoft to improve their browser, and on endusers to use a more functional and effective browser.
Okay maybe my argument is a bit weak on that end, but back to the reason why this thread was created
Anybody else share my hatred of IE and its awful rendering engine?
95% of the time when I have seen something along those lines it has become a microsoft flame fest -- and that is what I was originally getting at. I am definantly suprised of the outcome of this thread in terms of discussion but as a moderator I was not looking for a microsoft bash.

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:44 pm
by timvw
I've stopped caring about users that have problems because they use things that are b0rken. Meaby more people should do that :)

There has been a time i preferred IE (4.0 - 4.5 - 5.0) over Netscape, but it was quickly replaced by Opera.. After that i switched to Mozilla and later to Firefox. I don't think there is a chance i'll ever return..

And to be honest, using programs like Firefox have only lowered the entry-level of using a Linux kernel on my desktop machine..

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:54 pm
by Roja
Jcart wrote: Okay maybe my argument is a bit weak on that end, but back to the reason why this thread was created
Anybody else share my hatred of IE and its awful rendering engine?
95% of the time when I have seen something along those lines it has become a microsoft flame fest -- and that is what I was originally getting at. I am definantly suprised of the outcome of this thread in terms of discussion but as a moderator I was not looking for a microsoft bash.
Extremely fair point. The OP's phrasing definitely would suggest that would happen. I understand.

Thankfully, these forums rise above the usual! We never have flamefests here.

< sarcasm-mode >
Vi sucks. So does OOP. Go Manchester united! Stupid {insert political party here}. (Snicker)
< / sarcasm-mode >

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:48 pm
by shiznatix
a microsoft flame fest this should not be.

this should definatly be a shared list of what the perfect bowser is and we all know that the perfect browser does not exist. i mean i have had to work around many different firefox bugs so although its better than IE it is not the best.

what i want to see in a browser is complete and total going by the standards of css html and javascript. if someone could give me that then bam my life is o so much better but alas nobody has come out with that yet, that i know of.

but this has been very imformative, so thanks you pimps for this discussion.

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:01 pm
by timvw
Sometimes i'm really annoyed by all those sites that require me to use javascript :(

When i live in my shell, i 'm in a constant flux between links, lynx and w3m..

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:33 pm
by stukov
timvw wrote:Sometimes i'm really annoyed by all those sites that require me to use javascript :(

When i live in my shell, i 'm in a constant flux between links, lynx and w3m..
Oww the good ol' links :)

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:11 am
by CoderGoblin
In my opinion it is not the individual beasts themselves (be it Opera/IE/Firefox) its the differences between them which is the killer. When building complex pages following a "standard" it should work without having to produce different code for different browsers. Which is better, I don't know. The W3C standards do not cover everything and those "gaps" get filled in different ways. Will it ever be "sane", I doubt it.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:56 am
by Roja
BTW, an excellent resource documenting a fairly complete list of IE-specific bugs can be found here: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:25 am
by theda
Someone once said that they hoped Microsoft would fix all the problems in the next release... Does anyone know anything about marketing? Of course they aren't. I'd say they will fix a few things, but then create more holes, similar in XP from 2000. They fixed a lot of things... but didn't get around to fixing it all, allowing them to say "Oh, upgrade to our next version... more stable!"

Now, the only problem I have with IE is that it doesn't support correctly Cookies. (What you say!?) I'll have some people able to visit my website, and others will somehow put my webhosts' domain in restricted sites. That makes no sense, when these people all had pretty much the same version of Windows XP/IE6. And none of them even fiddled with their settings either.
I'll still use IE every now and then... because there's no other way around it. I can't view Microsoft related websites in FF because it redirects me to "Please download our POS browser to view this page" What we should do is do a DDOS attack on those websites -_-; Well maybe not, but I think we need to get rid of the "redirect depending on browser" snippet from JS.

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:28 am
by timvw
- Most people disable JS exactly for that reason ;)

- I've heared people call for the opposite: Redirect if they use something as b0rken as IE. I don't think that's a good idea.

- I'm affraid (or happy) that microsoft is going to loose many customers if they think they can keep up with this attitude. I don't care how msdn devers blog that the next visual studio or operating system is going to be great. I want the stuff i use today to be great. And if they don't offer it, i'll get it elsewhere. And never come back.

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:35 am
by John Cartwright
timvw wrote: - I'm affraid (or happy) that microsoft is going to loose many customers if they think they can keep up with this attitude. I don't care how msdn devers blog that the next visual studio or operating system is going to be great. I want the stuff i use today to be great. And if they don't offer it, i'll get it elsewhere. And never come back.
Oh man the thing is they can get away with it. Think about the amount of people that are clueless and have no idea how insecure Internet Explorer is, or people who don't care about what browser their using -- they are just happy Windows comes with one.

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:41 am
by timvw
If microsoft releases a new operating system we're more or less forced to "upgrade" anyway..

I doesn't matter if we switch or not, we'll have to invest in training our clueless masses anyway (They don't care about having a browser or not, they care about the "E" they can click on.)

But the difference is this: Do we invest money in microsoft (that has treated us bad in the past, and is unlikely to change it's attitude) or do we try something new?

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:43 am
by John Cartwright
We download pirated versions of their operating system :lol:

and then try and something new 8)

Latest news

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:40 pm
by Roja
It should be noted that in their latest blog post, Microsoft is committing to fixing a slew of major problems: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

For me, with that list, the only major complaints I have left:

Application/XHTML+XML support
Oddball caching behavior

If those two are fixed in addition to the list they posted, I will no longer have any serious standards complaints about MS.

I'm impressed, and I'm willing to wait and see what Beta2 brings.

Re: Latest news

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:47 pm
by nielsene
Roja wrote:It should be noted that in their latest blog post, Microsoft is committing to fixing a slew of major problems: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

For me, with that list, the only major complaints I have left:

Application/XHTML+XML support
Oddball caching behavior

If those two are fixed in addition to the list they posted, I will no longer have any serious standards complaints about MS.

I'm impressed, and I'm willing to wait and see what Beta2 brings.
If they truly ship a product with those bugs fixed/features added, I'll be very happy and surprised. The cynic in me still doesn't trust them, and won't until I see them. Howeverr the post blog post doesn't sound as vaporware as most of MS's marketting so maybe there is hope.