Jcart wrote:I was sort of rushing my response in my rant, and my head was not where it should be. What I was trying to get across is simply creating threads with the intent to bash it does not get us anywhere. If you want to actively partake in letting Microsoft know about your specific complaints then by all means do it, it's what thousands of people are doing.
Just because Microsoft doesn't directly read this thread, doesn't mean it won't have value in creating change.
Microsoft has built a culture and a company around the value of cutting-edge developers. I'll spare the link to the famous Steve Ballmer chant "Developers, Developers, Developers" that lasted for minutes straight, but the point remains.
Microsoft values developers - in fact, developers are the main reason Microsoft has been as successful as it has.
By publicly discussing legitimate problems, concerns, and issues with Microsoft products, we increase the awareness of the issues among developers.
This week alone, three different developers have posted a question here asking why Firefox "is so stupid", when in fact it turned out to be invalid code that IE covered up for, while Firefox follows the standard. That shows an opportunity to educate - many of them did not know that IE was the cause of their problems, and honestly, its counter-intuitive!
By being honest, and not cutting off discussion of valid shortcomings because "We've heard it before", we can not only educate, we can also raise awareness of the real, high-impact problems that IE causes.
We've already had people in this very thread argue that IE's shortcomings can be "worked around", and should just be lived with. Thats a lack of awareness of the extent of damage, and definitely a valid area for discussion.
Jcart wrote:
I'm sure Microsoft developpers do not travel forum to forum seeing if people have problems with their products.
Oddly enough, they specifically hired and placed people on the IE7 team known for doing just that. Robert Scoble, a widely known blogger and forum visitor to MANY sites is a key member of that team now. I'm not saying I personally know the name of a MS IE7 team member that visits *these* forums every day, but the argument isn't entirely valid.
The IE7 team does view other forums, and even if not directly, it can generate discussion and buzz that can make it beyond our tiny realm.
Jcart wrote:
Don't get me wrong guys, I completely agree with you but just because I agree doesn't mean discussions should be repeated over and over.
If we followed that standard, we'd have to stop discussing OOP, logins, hashes, passwords, sessions, register_globals, php.ini settings..
You get the idea. Just because its heard often doesn't make it less worthwhile to discuss. If anything, the fact that IE continues to cause problems and confusion four YEARS since their last release means that developers that know why *need* to explain it so that we can continue the pressure on Microsoft to improve their browser, and on endusers to use a more functional and effective browser.