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Ye' old general discussion board. Basically, for everything that isn't covered elsewhere. Come here to shoot the breeze, shoot your mouth off, or whatever suits your fancy.
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shiznatix
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Post by shiznatix »

I killed 36 people today alone. don't ask me how i got away with it but i did. it was nuts i tell you what. you are next (yes you) because you believe in OOP (or disbalieve!) and no matter what chill the freak out. i have guns and i don't know how to use them!

ps. this post was ment in humor to people fighting over things that should be discussed instead of fought. don't bring your guns to me please. to everyone fighting: chill out. this is programming, not your girlfriend.
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Post by mickd »

i think another thing that'll influence the decision of people is weather they use PHP to develop enterprise applications (maybe as their job) or just someone that has a hobby in PHP which wouldn't need to use OOP completely or at all.
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Maugrim_The_Reaper
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Post by Maugrim_The_Reaper »

i think another thing that'll influence the decision of people is weather they use PHP to develop enterprise applications (maybe as their job) or just someone that has a hobby in PHP which wouldn't need to use OOP completely or at all.
I am a self-professed hobbyist (I audit other peoples work as opposed to doing full time development - yes, I'm evil...forgive me, I atone by working on open source projects almost exclusively). I use OOP. I also use procedural. I think I will never quite understand when or how OOP overtook procedural on tha basis of morals. Aren't both in PHP, both used to attain a result and both open to criticism? When did methodologies become religions? When did everyone suddenly become developers of enterprise level applications? What are the new students of PHP going to do when they are told their new website is a badly designed heap of unmaintainable rubbish they should be ashamed of - because it was coded with procedural?

When will Maugrim stop typing? ;)
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Post by mickd »

exactly my point :wink: i think :lol:
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BDKR
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Post by BDKR »

When I first saw this thread, I laughed like it was going out of style. It certainly seems like we're taking ourselves too seriously. Whatever...

But let me shift gears here and "get into the spirit of things".
General Kenobi wrote: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Oooopppsss!!! Did I say that? :oops:

Seriously, I feel that McGruff's offending comments should be removed immediately. Why? Well, let me start with a question. What if I said in response...
Yeah, we've had problems with frequent anti procedural/functional/(insert favorite non-OO paradigm here) trolls.
Who do you think would've been the first person to get <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span>? Of course, it would've been deemed blastphemous from the preisthood and all sorts of fire
and derision would rain down.

But instead, I asked that McGreivous...errr...McGruff merely change her tone. Here are the simple reasons why.

1) It was inflammatory (straight troll speed when you get right down to it). There is huge potential here to step on a lot of toes.

2) Advancement has NEVER been acheived by/in rigid institutions. Go back and read what Charles Babbage had to go through, yet he laid the
very foundation of the modern day computer. All of those well speaking and well dressed individuals of lofty station, towing the line all the while have indeed
been proved wrong. There are a lot of people that can see through such an institution. Good for them! But what of those that are not yet at that point? Do we present
them with simplistic maxims or show them all sides and ALL criticisms. It seems clear that McGruff's view of this board is rather black and white. Which in
is absolutely hilarious when one considers the origons upon which our endeavors are based (a reference back to Charles Babbage and the fact that he and
his work was ultimately derided and thought little of).

In light of number 1), he does the very thing in the very same sentence that is meant to discourage such behaviour. Is THIS the outward face that this board
should present? To go one step further, he then manuevers behind the legalaties (rules) of our present institution (this board) AS IF to say, "The rules
don't apply to me!". Well history has proven that justice becomes unjust when the lawmakers aren't subject to the rule of law.

Going further, I think things said in public should be addressed in public. McGruff's statement was a negative broadcast into a public forum. AND IT'S STILL THERE!.
Now that this board is seen (as evidenced by the post in question) as a staunch, rigid, boot wearing supporter of OOP, what will you do when those that understand
the ramifications of what's going, the very sames ones that also make fantastic programmers and linguists, decide not to participate?

So I said all that to say, "LIGHTEN UP!"

And one more thing. I got two private messages in my box surrounding this whole thing. Well....

1) I didn't read them. Had better things to do.
2) Why should I be getting them? The problem lies in the fact that we obviously think that someone that hasn't reached the lofty and pious level of OOP priest is of low station. Or am I deemed of low station so when I open my mouth I should be slapped down?
3) Of course, it may be an apology, but if a politician did that shiza in a public forum, he or she would have a press conference and apologize.

Once again. You Einstiens broke it in public. Fix it in public!

And no, this isn't about OOP! This is about how this board is seen as the result of someones behaviour.
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trukfixer
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Post by trukfixer »

I, too am a professional php developer developing enterprise level applications as my full time job, I also develop applications in Perl and Python, (and Python is heavily object oriented- everything in Python is an object) and I develop php applications at enterprise level in OOP only when it is suitable- I.E. a user login class, a database operations class to get a slightly different recordset under similar but not equal circumstances, and more) and I would say 85% of all my php code is procedural, because it lends itself to rapid development and deployment for a web front-end.... and I see no point in writing a class for some additional application that will *never* be re-used in any other place, so why should I waste time writing objects and functions when it is *FASTER* to write procedural code in those cases where code isnt expected to need to be re-used in the future.. (and fast deployment/development is important at enterprise level, I'm sure you'll agree..)

Python, on the other hand, I write much of my code into modules, simply because of the applications I write, much of the code is frequently re-used, so in that case, it makes more sense to write modules (In php, would be called a class) than to write python in pure procedural .. I have a good half dozen common modules, like a regex module to parse an Apache CLF string for different data, database module to suit our specific database structure , with common inserts, updates and deletes.. (It's so much easier to just write "dbclass.insert_log(date,bytes,URI)" than to write the good dozen or so lines multiple times in multiple places :) ..)

so, as a professional developer that daily writes code for a dozen different high load, high traffic applications, the most important thing is the *speed* of development.. if I think I can develop an application faster by writing certain stuff into objects or modules, that's what I do, otherwise, I just write it out in procedural.. the bottom line is the answer to: *how fast can you deploy the application?" not "Is my code going to look pretty and give the other guys on my development team a h***-on?"

if I can deploy an application done in procedural in 3 hours V.S. deploying an application done in OOP in 6 hours, obviously I am gonna write procedural... cause I have a bunch of other applications projects waiting for me when I get this one done..

I really have never seen just *why* it has to be such a "holy war" as to whether oop is better than procedural... to me, code is only as good as the author. and believe me, I have seen some absolute *CRAP* OOP code, and I have seen some incredibly elegant, highly effective procedural code.. and Vice-Versa.... the only difference I have seen is the competence of the programmer, not his methods... coding in OOP doesnt make you "l33t" any more than coding in procedural makes you an amateur.
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BDKR
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Post by BDKR »

Python for the teh win! I love that language.
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Post by Charles256 »

In the meantime I still don't fully get classes. :-/ Oh well, I can write my procedural code with some functions here and there well enough. :-D
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Post by n00b Saibot »

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, don't step on it :lol:
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Post by Charles256 »

Why not? This is too good to be true. I mean, surely someone besides me is laughing at all of this? :lol:
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To The DevNetwork Community:

Post by feyd »

To The DevNetwork Community:

As is obvious in this thread, there has been a great deal of turmoil surrounding this issue (the OOP vs Procedural debate) in our history. As such, general members and members of the moderator team alike have allowed their views on the topic to boil and spill over into their personal views and subsequently violate certain forum rules.

As a team of moderators, we will not accept this. A violation of a forum rule by ANY member of this community (moderator or general member), will not be tolerated. We are taking measures to penalize those responsible for any rules violations and apologize if you have been directly affected by the actions of others.

Please don't hesitate to call on any one from the moderator team at any time if you have questions about the rules, or you would like further information about proper conduct on the boards.

The DevNetwork Moderator Team
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BDKR
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Post by BDKR »

Why not give the posturing a break and remove the offensive statement in question?
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Post by McGruff »

BDKR: it's no secret that OOP v procedural has caused a lot of problems that's just a fact of life - I didn't name any names nor do I intend to. If you thought the comment was aimed at you it wasn't. Since it offends you so much I'll go and edit it now.

I do like to encourage people to learn about OOP and testing. I hope I don't attack other people although I may criticise ideas - just as mine are open to criticism. That's called debate, same as in all the other subjects we discuss. I wouldn't find cause to be offended by criticism and I wouldn't expect others to either.

You had a complaint. That's fine. People are allowed to complain. You ignored my request to start a new topic and so I moved your post in order not to drag the original thread OT. Rather than make a reasonable complaint you're going off on a bad-tempered rant. I'll speak to you about that privately.
Last edited by McGruff on Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by McGruff »

I'm going to draw a line under this now and lock the topic. I'll try to post some rules for future OOP v procedural discussions shortly. Basically, I don't want members to be afraid to ask questions for fear of getting caught up in another bun fight. I like to see academic debate; I don't like mere argument. Accusing people of being religious zealots, for example, or talking about holy wars is not something I want to hear. All are free to express an opinion but we all have to accept that others may have different opinions. The aim is to explore these differences on their technical merits not to win an argument or vent your spleen.

Light not heat, in other words.
Locked