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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:57 am
by patrikG
The Ninja Space Goat wrote::cry: I have inferior debate skills, but I stick by my opinion.
If you're not convinced something: speak out.
If you're convinced: say so.

If you're convinced but you want to be stubborn: be, but think about your opinions more clearly next time.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:12 pm
by Luke
Well I know how I feel about the matter...
I have few facts to back my opinion up, and therefor surrender in the debate.

But I still stand by my opinion.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:28 pm
by foobar
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:Well I know how I feel about the matter...
I have few facts to back my opinion up, and therefor surrender in the debate.

But I still stand by my opinion.
If you want to believe "properly", find evidence that supports your views. Take a moment to reflect on why you believe in it, and why you don't believe in the counter-argument. Don't give up that easily! :)

I used to be horrible at debating, but through internet fora, I've actually become better at arguing in real life. Try to pick out flaws in the logic, question the "facts" they use to back up their opinions. And above all, don't give up!

Even if you are proven wrong in the end, at least be certain that you put forth a valid argument.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:08 pm
by Luke
Alright...
My problems with FP...

1. Inexperienced and underqualified web designers often get web design jobs based on sites they have created in FP. The employer, knowing little of the web design world looks at their sites in IE and everything is A-OK. Well little does he know the page explodes when opened in any other browser and Mr. Webdesigner is overpaid for a half-ass job. Now a new web designer has to come in and fix all these mistakes and deal with crappy code created by FrontPage. (personal experience)

2. Anything 100% proprietary to a certain OS is extremely unportable. If, on top of being proprietary, you need to install extensions, now we're entering into the realm of just plain impractical and useless.

(Considering we are at a PHP site, I am assuming portability is an important issue to all of you, considering you didn't choose something more proprietary, like ASP)

3. Themes in particular inflate page sizes and may slow page loading.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:30 pm
by alvinphp
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:LOL sorry... I guess that is a little exreme, but it just irritates me that people think web design is so simple. It isn't. I am talking about people who think they'll be able to make a professional site with frontpage and paypal.

Dreamweaver mx 2004 does not mess with my code.
DW and Frontpage has its place and they are great tools for what they try to do. You should not bash a tool for not doing what it was never designed to do. Frontpage and DW is made to be super easy where you don't need to know html and it does it.

What is funny to me is your views on people that use Frontpage is the same view I have for Dreamweaver also. I would not touch Frontpage with a 10 foot pole, but I would not touch DW either for the work I do. IMHO, If you plan to do any serious web development you need to use an IDE with integrated source control, debugging, performance tuning, and an ability to create a project entity where you can do things like navigate and review your your class hierarchy.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:47 pm
by Luke
alvinphp wrote:
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:LOL sorry... I guess that is a little exreme, but it just irritates me that people think web design is so simple. It isn't. I am talking about people who think they'll be able to make a professional site with frontpage and paypal.

Dreamweaver mx 2004 does not mess with my code.
DW and Frontpage has its place and they are great tools for what they try to do. You should not bash a tool for not doing what it was never designed to do. Frontpage and DW is made to be super easy where you don't need to know html and it does it.

What is funny to me is your views on people that use Frontpage is the same view I have for Dreamweaver also. I would not touch Frontpage with a 10 foot pole, but I would not touch DW either for the work I do. IMHO, If you plan to do any serious web development you need to use an IDE with integrated source control, debugging, performance tuning, and an ability to create a project entity where you can do things like navigate and review your your class hierarchy.
DW MX 2004 is excellent for initial design. Once you have your initial design... it is a crime to let a WYSIWYG editor touch it. I guess I am arguing the wrong point. Maybe Frontpage has its purpose, but I hate it and will never even think of calling it a "good program"... wouldn't touch it,

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:12 pm
by John Cartwright
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:Alright...
My problems with FP...

1. Inexperienced and underqualified web designers often get web design jobs based on sites they have created in FP. The employer, knowing little of the web design world looks at their sites in IE and everything is A-OK. Well little does he know the page explodes when opened in any other browser and Mr. Webdesigner is overpaid for a half-ass job. Now a new web designer has to come in and fix all these mistakes and deal with crappy code created by FrontPage. (personal experience)

2. Anything 100% proprietary to a certain OS is extremely unportable. If, on top of being proprietary, you need to install extensions, now we're entering into the realm of just plain impractical and useless.

(Considering we are at a PHP site, I am assuming portability is an important issue to all of you, considering you didn't choose something more proprietary, like ASP)

3. Themes in particular inflate page sizes and may slow page loading.
I agree with your second of third point, but writting invalid code has little to do with the program. Unfortunantly sometimes we have to deal with the leftovers of other developers mess, but the bottom line is I could open up notepad and write just as sloppy code as I could in any editor.. If your striving for valid html then your going to have to learn compliance, and how to properly write html. On the other hand, people should not using using WYSIWYG editors for anything commercial or of the sort in the first place. :?

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:39 pm
by Luke
On the other hand, people should not using using WYSIWYG editors for anything commercial or of the sort in the first place. :?
Oh wow... I thought you were argueing that it was. this whole time I was arguing this opinion... then we are on the same page. And whoever told me that my pages don't validate has encouraged me to validate them. sierra-tech.com's index page is now valid... much more to come... lol.

FrontPage Sucks...Period.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:54 pm
by icesolid
Sorry, no way, no how is FrontPage useful. Does not apply to this community. Why did you post about FrontPage. I thought this forum was full of PHP/knowledgable programmers.

[content removed]

Jcart | Play nice :x

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:57 pm
by neophyte
WYSIWYG HTML editors "helped" me in the beginning. But in the end they taught me a lot of bad habits and bad practices. Any help they gave me initially was small in comparison to the time it took to unlearn bad habits I formed. I think it would have been better, even from the beginning, if I had been forced to code and learn. Now I use a text editor and rely on w3c and browsers for validation and preview. Although code hints are something I still use from time to time, "preview" mode and drag and drop stuff is over with for me. I'd tell any noob to do it the "hard" way.

Can't Agree With You More

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:15 pm
by icesolid
Just read the subject.

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:34 pm
by Luke
neophyte wrote:WYSIWYG HTML editors "helped" me in the beginning. But in the end they taught me a lot of bad habits and bad practices. Any help they gave me initially was small in comparison to the time it took to unlearn bad habits I formed. I think it would have been better, even from the beginning, if I had been forced to code and learn. Now I use a text editor and rely on w3c and browsers for validation and preview. Although code hints are something I still use from time to time, "preview" mode and drag and drop stuff is over with for me. I'd tell any noob to do it the "hard" way.
I will agree 100%
As for ice... what the hell are you talking about??

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:50 pm
by Charles256
i think ice is going for a ban is my opinion..as well as a few other of you...either way....i still like DW :-D I forgot certian HTML tags all the time..all the time..that and I forget CSS tags a lot more, seems like every day...and i like how i get a drop down menu to browse through all the tags (Well most of em).soo...go DW? :-D

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:12 am
by Luke
Charles256 wrote:i think ice is going for a ban is my opinion..as well as a few other of you...either way....i still like DW :-D I forgot certian HTML tags all the time..all the time..that and I forget CSS tags a lot more, seems like every day...and i like how i get a drop down menu to browse through all the tags (Well most of em).soo...go DW? :-D
I agree with that too... I use Dreamweaver for initial site layout and reference later on.

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:40 am
by mickd
I would like to state some of my opinions:

I personally am not a fan of FrontPage but i also don't have anything against it.

I myself use DreamWeaver alot. Not for its design view and its WYSIWYG part but only for its syntax highlighting in coder's view.

I have nothing against people that use FP or DW to make their websites. If it works for them then good for them.

The only reason two reasons why i dislike FP is:
1) Its look. I don't like it (personal preference).
2) I prefer the satisfaction of writing my own code.

That's my 2cents.