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Frontpage discussion

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:42 pm
by Grim...
FrontPage is good.
My mum built a website in it, and there is no way she'd have been able to bust out notepad and get down with the HTML.

I wouldn't use it, but it has it's place.

<edit>This was split from the Firefox topic. I didn't just start a thead with that ;)</edit>

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:48 pm
by Luke
Roja wrote: Frontpage is actually a decent GUI-based webpage editor
No it isn't.
Roja wrote:I used to use Frontpage.
Ew. I won't dignify that with a longer response.
Roja wrote:Make it an easy choice for him, by factoring in the costs correctly. Start describing pages as compliant or non-compliant, and for non-compliant pages you are asked to maintain, add a 50% increase in time, and attribute it to compliance problems. Then he will begin to associate "non-compliant" with "harder to maintain", and eventually, he will recognize that he will save money in the long run by making the code compliant in the first place.
Good advice. I will give that a shot. Thanks.[/quote]

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:28 pm
by John Cartwright
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:
Roja wrote: Frontpage is actually a decent GUI-based webpage editor
No it isn't.
Roja wrote:I used to use Frontpage.
Ew. I won't dignify that with a longer response.
I won't dignify your response either, unless you can give a meaningful response instead of No and Ew. :?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:21 pm
by Luke
1. It changes your code without asking
2. It requires extensions on the server
3. It is almost impossible to create readable code with it
4. It messes with your php
5. It messes with your comments
6. It creates horrible pages
7. It gives morons the idea that they can create web pages
8. It makes morons think making web sites is as easy as opening a program and whipping up a site
9. Most if it is IE & Windows specific.
10. It sucks majorly.

There's 10.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:39 pm
by josh
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:1. It changes your code without asking
2. It requires extensions on the server
3. It is almost impossible to create readable code with it
4. It messes with your php
5. It messes with your comments
6. It creates horrible pages
7. It gives morons the idea that they can create web pages
8. It makes morons think making web sites is as easy as opening a program and whipping up a site
9. Most if it is IE & Windows specific.
10. It sucks majorly.

There's 10.
There's 5, the other 5 consisted of opinions and irrelevant things, I do agree frontpage is not designed for PHP, but thats not what we're talking about, Roja said its a good GUI based editor. It is good at what it was designed to do is what he was saying, not that it is good at what you want it to do.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:48 pm
by Luke
There's 5, the other 5 consisted of opinions and irrelevant things, I do agree frontpage is not designed for PHP, but thats not what we're talking about, Roja said its a good GUI based editor. It is good at what it was designed to do is what he was saying, not that it is good at what you want it to do.
I consider my opinions facts. lol.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:11 pm
by John Cartwright
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:
There's 5, the other 5 consisted of opinions and irrelevant things, I do agree frontpage is not designed for PHP, but thats not what we're talking about, Roja said its a good GUI based editor. It is good at what it was designed to do is what he was saying, not that it is good at what you want it to do.
I consider my opinions facts. lol.
Even though we respect your opinion, we do not consider them facts, nor does anyone consider anyones opinions facts. Lets get back on topic.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:23 pm
by Luke
Jcart wrote:
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:
There's 5, the other 5 consisted of opinions and irrelevant things, I do agree frontpage is not designed for PHP, but thats not what we're talking about, Roja said its a good GUI based editor. It is good at what it was designed to do is what he was saying, not that it is good at what you want it to do.
I consider my opinions facts. lol.
Even though we respect your opinion, we do not consider them facts, nor does anyone consider anyones opinions facts. Lets get back on topic.
LOL ok

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:04 pm
by Roja
Okay, so that people don't think these have no answer..
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:1. It changes your code without asking
You can prevent that. You have to set it in the options. Tools > Page Options > HTML Source, Preserve existing HTML.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:2. It requires extensions on the server
Only for the FP-specific items, and there are only 6 of those - none of which are particularly useful. But yes, for those, you do actually need extensions on the server.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:3. It is almost impossible to create readable code with it
If you do preserve existing html, it makes very readable code. You can set virtually all the options for its style. Read more: http://www.seoconsultants.com/frontpage ... ptions.asp .
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:4. It messes with your php
Its an html editor, not a php editor, silly. You can't open a php file in it by default, so if you tell it to open the wrong file type, guess who made the mistake? :)
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:5. It messes with your comments
See above. Not true if you tell it not to.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:6. It creates horrible pages
I've made *incredible* pages in Frontpage. Its a tool - you can use it for good or evil. :)
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:7. It gives morons the idea that they can create web pages
Anyone can create a webpage. Anyone can use a computer. Your opinion of people is your own.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:8. It makes morons think making web sites is as easy as opening a program and whipping up a site
It is that easy.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:9. Most if it is IE & Windows specific.
This one you are 100% correct on.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:10. It sucks majorly.
Opinion, and I disagree.

But hey, you had one solid reason, and one halfway solid reason.

I stopped using it because a convicted monopolist is using it to help extend their domination in multiple markets, which you didn't list.

As a program though, its fairly well done.

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:36 am
by foobar
Grim... wrote:FrontPage is good.
My mum built a website in it, and there is no way she'd have been able to bust out notepad and get down with the HTML.
:lol: Lol!

But seriously, FrontPage is far from good. I've never seen a standards compliant website made in it. I also hate programs that barge into your source-code, destroying everything in sight wenever you decide to use the WYSIWYG editor. Not to forget when they add <meta http-equiv="Generator" value="Microsoft FrontPage 6.0"> in your <head> :evil: . Plus, WYSIWYG editors are just a pain in the ass. Reason why I type it myself. :roll:

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:12 am
by Grim...
Frontpage isn't designed to make complient code (although I bet it could - I'm going to try when I get home) - it's designed to easily make websites that work well for ~90% of people on the web.
And having things work for ~90% of people is far more important (right now) than having a standards complient site that only works for ~10%...

(Puts on flame-proof pants)
(And runs away)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:32 am
by Roja
I've split this topic from the original discussion, because it had *nothing* to do with the original topic, and easily stood on its own.
foobar wrote:But seriously, FrontPage is far from good. I've never seen a standards compliant website made in it.
I've made plenty. The key is configuring the program correctly.
foobar wrote:I also hate programs that barge into your source-code, destroying everything in sight wenever you decide to use the WYSIWYG editor.
Once again, for Frontpage, you just have to configure it - its only *one* checkbox. If you can't be bothered to click one checkbox, I can't really take you seriously.
foobar wrote:Not to forget when they add <meta http-equiv="Generator" value="Microsoft FrontPage 6.0"> in your <head> :evil: .
FP2003 has an option to disable that, and for older versions, there is a free plugin on Microsoft's site: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... 16730A0894
foobar wrote:Plus, WYSIWYG editors are just a pain in the ass. Reason why I type it myself. :roll:
Then Frontpage isn't what you are looking for. I return to my original comment - Frontpage is a fairly good WYSIWYG editor. Just because you don't like WYSIWYG doesn't change its status as a good one!
foobar wrote:Frontpage isn't designed to make complient code (although I bet it could - I'm going to try when I get home) - it's designed to easily make websites that work well for ~90% of people on the web.
Actually, FP2003 does an excellent job of making compliant code by default. Its definitely designed to do so.

But yes, its primary purpose is making editing easy.

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:22 am
by Grim...
I only have 2000 :)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:24 am
by d_d
The only problem I have with front page is that it pretends to be a html editor when in reality it is an internet explorer page editor. It's too easy for people with no knowledge to get burnt and end up with sites that require a fair bit of effort before they will work in other browsers.
If your going to exclude such a large amount of users from visiting you site you should have a really good reason.

Perhaps the newer versions are a lot better but the older ones produced code that only really worked in IE for no good reason. I've known a couple of people that just wanted to put together a small site without learning html and used frontpage. They both ended up either learning html or finding someone that did to fix their sites.

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:09 am
by Luke
Roja wrote:Okay, so that people don't think these have no answer..
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:1. It changes your code without asking
You can prevent that. You have to set it in the options. Tools > Page Options > HTML Source, Preserve existing HTML.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:2. It requires extensions on the server
Only for the FP-specific items, and there are only 6 of those - none of which are particularly useful. But yes, for those, you do actually need extensions on the server.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:3. It is almost impossible to create readable code with it
If you do preserve existing html, it makes very readable code. You can set virtually all the options for its style. Read more: http://www.seoconsultants.com/frontpage ... ptions.asp .
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:4. It messes with your php
Its an html editor, not a php editor, silly. You can't open a php file in it by default, so if you tell it to open the wrong file type, guess who made the mistake? :)
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:5. It messes with your comments
See above. Not true if you tell it not to.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:6. It creates horrible pages
I've made *incredible* pages in Frontpage. Its a tool - you can use it for good or evil. :)
I don't believe you.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:7. It gives morons the idea that they can create web pages
Anyone can create a webpage. Anyone can use a computer. Your opinion of people is your own.
No... anyone can create a web page in FrontPage, and not anyone can use a computer most people think they can, but they are better at breaking them.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:8. It makes morons think making web sites is as easy as opening a program and whipping up a site
It is that easy.
It is only that easy because of FrontPage, and you can not create good websites in frontpage. I don't care what you say. Show me one.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:9. Most if it is IE & Windows specific.
This one you are 100% correct on.
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:10. It sucks majorly.
Opinion, and I disagree.

But hey, you had one solid reason, and one halfway solid reason.

I stopped using it because a convicted monopolist is using it to help extend their domination in multiple markets, which you didn't list.

As a program though, its fairly well done.
Man... I don't care what you say WYSIWYG editors (in general) suck. Unless you know html, and are using a WYSIWYG that does not mess with anything you're doing (Dreamweaver) you shouldn't even be messing with web design. This results in websites like this...
http://www.paradisesoccer.com/
If you are making your own personal web page, and it is in no way supposed to be professional, sure... I guess FrontPage has its place... and that place is this...
A crappy WYSIWYG that makes crappy pages for stupid people.