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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:55 pm
by Zoram
I'm with onion2K on this one. I'm not a head of development except over myself but the time that it takes to install plugins and adjust settings are pretty much a one time deal. the rest about learning the complexities is what it means to be a web developer. if you have a technology on your server then you learn how to use and apply it to your coding or you don't. it all depends on what features and function you want to have and how much you know about using them. No one says that you have to use tons of libraries... they are just there to help if you don't want to take all the time to program everthing that they have already done. which takes more time for you? Learning to use a library or programming your own system?

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:59 pm
by waradmin
Im sorry if people are getting mad at me for my comments on ColdFusion, by telling me that these are PHP forums and this isnt the place for me to talk about CF and why its good. But i guess i misunderstood the meaning of this General Board description being
Ye' old general discussion board. Basically, for everything that isn't covered elsewhere. Come here to shoot the breeze, shoot your mouth off, or whatever suits your fancy.
I think im following those rules by my comments on here, but then again, some people may view what im saying differently.

My major points are that from a flat install, ColdFusion has more features ready than PHP. As has been stated many times, when i tried to prove a point, you need to install more plugins for features to work in PHP. I said CF is more convinent because you dont have to do that.

Second, CF has a lower learning curve, its easier to pick up and do what companies want. I develop websites, and web applications for the district i attend, Independent School District 14, which consists of 6-7 different buildings. I develop webpages used by our Accounting/Payroll department, IT department, as well as every teacher and staff member. And for the last year i used PHP. But once our IT department rolled out coldfusion on their intranet side, we have recieved more positive feedback, and production time to yeild product has decreased by about 1/2.

I like CF, as well as PHP. I am doing a massive project with Zoram and Shiznatix (our MySpace Social networking site done in PHP) so i am all for PHP. But i was simply stating some of the benefits a PHP coder (myself) discovered when using ColdFusion.

What is the Zend platform like anyway, ive heard a lot about Zend programing but have never seen the IDE (or does it not have one).

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:20 pm
by malcolmboston
waradmin wrote: Second, CF has a lower learning curve, its easier to pick up and do what companies want.
i disagree with that completely, PHP is extremely simple, much simpler than CF, coldfusion's syntax is horrid, i would not consider anyone who presses a button in dreamweaver to add an authentication system to the site a web developer, as a side note, code that dreamweaver produces for PHP is disgusting, and from what i can remember of coldfusion (i havent touched it in 2+ years) Coldfusions isnt much better...

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:39 pm
by Roja
waradmin wrote:Im sorry if people are getting mad at me for my comments on ColdFusion, by telling me that these are PHP forums and this isnt the place for me to talk about CF and why its good.
This is definitely not a forum for praising CF and knocking PHP, no matter how you interpret the term "General". The fact that two longtime members have suggested either guiding your commentary appropriately or ending the discussion should have been a clear indicator of that (although missing the PHP in the Devnetwork logo is a bit hard).
waradmin wrote:But i guess i misunderstood the meaning of this General Board description being
Ye' old general discussion board. Basically, for everything that isn't covered elsewhere. Come here to shoot the breeze, shoot your mouth off, or whatever suits your fancy.
I think im following those rules by my comments on here, but then again, some people may view what im saying differently.
Several do, and its not just what you are saying - its more specifically how. You aren't taking the time to consider PHP, you are simply using this thread as an excuse to take cheap (and mostly inaccurate) shots at PHP to crow about CF. Virtually every point you've made is either highly subjective, inaccurate, or has substantial counter-points - all of which you ignore to move on and make more comments. "Yeah, but CF is great because..".
waradmin wrote:My major points are that from a flat install, ColdFusion has more features ready than PHP.
On which platform? It does matter, as there are packages on most major platforms that have many features setup by default for you. XAMPP on Windows, the Redhat PHP RPM, the apt package for Debian, and so on all have a tremendous number of features already setup for you - no action needed. Better, its even easier to install than Coldfusion, because its opensource, and it has been setup for easy install using the native package manager for that platform.
waradmin wrote:As has been stated many times, when i tried to prove a point, you need to install more plugins for features to work in PHP. I said CF is more convinent because you dont have to do that.
And as we've stated many times, its a one time "cost" to get those (few, specific) features to work in PHP. In most places you use PHP, they are installed by default by the packagers on Linux, Unix, or even the app packagers (XAMPP) for Windows - so there is *zero* cost, and its the same value for CF.

However, if you *don't* want those features, or if you'd like to add additional features beyond the standard, PHP lets you do so, and CF doesn't. Thats a net win for PHP.
waradmin wrote:Second, CF has a lower learning curve, its easier to pick up and do what companies want.
Lower learning code is subjective. It depends on the programmers background, the task at hand, and more. In the vast majority of cases, I disagree. Considering the population and focal interest of these forums, its likely they do as well.

As to "what companies want": Large companies want maintainable code, and thats not CF. Check the job market for Coldfusion developers v. PHP developers nationwide. (Monster says 1,000+ for PHP, and <500 for CF. Thats over a 2-to-1 advantage for "What companies want"). How many CF certified developers are there? Oh right, there isn't a certification for it. How many monthly publications are there specific to CF? Seems like a strong advantage on the side of PHP in virtually every measurable indicator for "What companies want". If you really want a strong counter-point, look at the number of domains running CF v. the number running PHP (Hint: Its over 10x more for PHP).
waradmin wrote:I like CF, as well as PHP. I am doing a massive project with Zoram and Shiznatix (our MySpace Social networking site done in PHP) so i am all for PHP. But i was simply stating some of the benefits a PHP coder (myself) discovered when using ColdFusion.
I don't think you are "all for" PHP. I think you've done little to consider any of the counterpoints in this thread, and have mostly used it as a troll to talk up CF with inaccuracies, subjective opinion, and speculation.
waradmin wrote:What is the Zend platform like anyway, ive heard a lot about Zend programing but have never seen the IDE (or does it not have one).
Hmm. Lets go to Zend.com, to research the comment. Its the first link listed in google for searching "Zend", so its probably a likely starting point. The graphic taking up 1/3rd of the page (at least at 1024x768) talks about Zend Studio, which appears to be an IDE.

Seriously, you aren't even trying to put up the pretense of looking into the counterpoints in the discussion. Stop trolling to pimp CF.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:12 pm
by patrikG
Let's keep it cool, guys. The guy wants to discuss ColdFusion vs. PHP - surely not a "holy-war" topic. And surely there is space for such a discussion on a PHP discussion board.

I was actually looking forward to discussion about it, think I've read one a couple of years back. So, if all of you don't tone it down from right here, I'll have to lock the thread.

Good discussions, waradmin, mean that each side deals witch each other arguments.

And to everyone: please, no further personal attacks.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:38 pm
by John Cartwright
waradmin wrote:Im sorry if people are getting mad at me for my comments on ColdFusion, by telling me that these are PHP forums and this isnt the place for me to talk about CF and why its good. But i guess i misunderstood the meaning of this General Board description being
Ye' old general discussion board. Basically, for everything that isn't covered elsewhere. Come here to shoot the breeze, shoot your mouth off, or whatever suits your fancy.
I think im following those rules by my comments on here, but then again, some people may view what im saying differently.
Just to be clear this discussion is perfectly within our guidelines. No need to be sorry.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:17 pm
by onion2k
Regarding the point about CF being easier to install .. I've never installed PHP in a production environment. I doubt many PHP developers have. The same goes for CF and CF developers. The programming team shouldn't really be doing the job of a sys admin.

That in turn leads to another point in PHP's favour: Finding a good quality hosting company. I checked what's on offer from the companies I deal with, and none of them offer CF hosting. A Google search for coldfusion hosting turns up a variety of options, but none from any companies I've heard of. Many years ago I used to do ASP development and I found that different hosts varied wildly with their Windows server implimentations .. if the same is true for CF then I can only imagine it would be a right old nightmare finding a decent company to go with.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:19 pm
by Charles256
i've installed PHP in a production environment..damn sysadmin is a newb (a good guy,just new) so I had to do it. thank heavens they have an .exe file which installs it. Though I did have to go edit the php.ini file to change some things,otherwise all was well...

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:52 pm
by alex.barylski
This whole topic sounds to me...like a designers attempt to enter the world of software development...to avoid having to hire a developer???

Real programmers DON'T use DW...hell...even notepad...we use debug to write code 8O

CF sucks...as far as i could tell...in the 3 minutes i glanced over it a few years back or so...

HTH :)

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:16 pm
by m3mn0n
What's wrong with DW?

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:29 pm
by alex.barylski
Sami wrote:What's wrong with DW?
Nothing dude...I was just trying to get his goat...

Although I personally hate complex UI's like DW or Flash...if you can hack em'...giver!!!

Cheers :)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:26 am
by patrikG
Hockey wrote:This whole topic sounds to me...like a designers attempt to enter the world of software development...to avoid having to hire a developer???
That's actually not an argument, hockey, but a slur. So leave that out of it.
Hockey wrote: Real programmers DON'T use DW...hell...even notepad...we use debug to write code 8O
Real programmers don't debug, they write unit tests.
Hockey wrote:CF sucks...as far as i could tell...in the 3 minutes i glanced over it a few years back or so...HTH :)
Don't try "to get someone's goat" unless you have something to say against it. So far, you've brought nothing into this discussion.

I'll keep this thread tightly moderated if I have to, but reading the entire thread before making drive-by postings helps to give sensible answers and/or questions.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:56 am
by Ree
I've never checked CF myself, but if you bring OOP factor in, I guess CF has nothing to offer here? Or does it?

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:03 am
by redmonkey
patrikG wrote:Real programmers don't debug, they write unit tests.
They are not mutally exclusive. And what exactly is a *real* programmer?

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:47 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Sorry, thought I was on Sitepoint for a while there...;)

Is CF a functional programming language? Yes.
Is CF widely used? Yes.
Is CF on job advertisements? Yes.
Is CF a piece of crap? Sorry, No.
Is CF worthwhile? Yes.

Why don't we go full hog and start a Ruby discussion - imagine the look of that topic after 24hrs...hehehe
Im looking for peoples opinions on which language they prefer, as far as ease of use, reliability, speed, functionality, and learning level.
CF is easier to learn if you are a complete newcomer with a need for quick results. PHP is easier to learn if you are experienced in most other standardised languages - C, C++, Java, etc., etc. Which is better to learn? My opinion is PHP - at least you can then spend five minutes looking at Perl or C++ and realise you can actually read the stuff with a little thought. PHP lends itself to experience with multiple languages - so it has benefits in that direction. Its also generally a more viable option as a server side language - you have to face the fact that PHP is huge. You'll find it easier to google, easier to do more complex tasks, easier to do most things. CF still has a reason for existence however - its just not capable of outdoing PHP.

Reliability? Bit of a red herring there. How do you measure reliability? PHP is extremely reliable, its supported by default on almost all desktop versions of Linux. You update it within a few minutes via apt, or its alternatives. You can compile it any way you choose, configure it any way you want... CF is also reliable - though maybe less flexible. Probably worth more looking at how reliable it is on a selection of platforms...

Speed. Try benchmarking a few alternative CF and PHP applications. Try it with PHP and an opcode cache. Speed is not a determining factor either - its a variable dependent on the processor, memory, opcode cache facility, disk access, and language. Its practially irrelevant.

Functionality? PHP hands down. You can do anything except run the refridgerator with it (and we have Java for that ;)). PHP has a huge collection of third party libraries for almost any conceivable need in a web application. There are even GUI elements for PHP.

Learning level? Both are very good at an entry level. But PHP is more useful for gaining a little non-PHP experience you can use for other languages. PHP is also a simple like switch from something like Java or C++. CF is okay if all you want are a few easy server side features (though be wary of anything that claims to generate HTML or Flash - even in PHP!) but PHP IMO is just too flexible to ignore because of a slightly steeper learning curve.

So from my POV CF is not redundant, but there are more powerful alternatives - like PHP.

Anyway, since when did programmers simply throw away tools still in use?