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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:14 am
by timvw
Grim... wrote: Who cares how the creators tell you to say the word? The English language dictates how we say things, not a bunch of programmers.
And who makes the English language? :)

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:22 am
by patrikG
Grim... wrote:Who cares how the creators tell you to say the word? The English language dictates how we say things, not a bunch of programmers.
No language "dictates" anything. Sure, there are ground rules, but as a language, English is a big bunch of exceptions to rules. Take the word "issue". Do pronounce it "ishoo" or rather "issjoo"? The former is the American pronunciation, the latter the British.
Also, bear in mind that the number of non-mothertongue English speakers outstrips the number of native English speakers - they all bring in their different ways of pronunciation.

Language is culture and culture is, by its nature, always evolving :)

But I find dedicating a page on whether it's pronounced "gif" vs "jif" totally over the top anyway. But the guy got something out of it, apparently :)

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:34 am
by pilau
patrikG wrote:
Grim... wrote:But I find dedicating a page on whether it's pronounced "gif" vs "jif" totally over the top anyway. But the guy got something out of it, apparently :)
Like this discussion, maybe? :D

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:35 am
by foobar
patrikG wrote:Do pronounce it "ishoo" or rather "issjoo"?
There's another exception right there; how to pronounce "j". Most of the time, in words like "jockey" and "jackass", it's pronounced like in "partridge" (in a pear tree). However, in the name "Sonja", it's pronounced as in "egg-yolk" or "yankee".

A good example of how many different pronounciation exist for a series of letters, try "ough":

cough => "off"
thorough => "O" (capital o)
dough => "ou"
nought => "o" as in "not"
through => "oo"

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:06 pm
by alvinphp
going by dictionary.com it can be either 'gif' or 'jif'. I tend to use both and everyone gets what i am saying. It is like SQL. Some say S-Q-L and others say SeeQL.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:28 pm
by pilau
If we're on this subject already...
I have an ex-girlfriend named "Gil" (Hebrew name) with a hard G. So in order to save missunderstanding about whether to pronounce it with a "j" or aith a "g" should I spell it as "Gill" with a double "L"?

- Another question: I know the you spell "p" as "pee", "s" as "ess" and "z" as "zed" or "zee". So how do you spell "a" and "L"? And how about "i"? And is "e" spelled "ee"?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:39 pm
by patrikG
Lois Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald wrote: Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald - Let's Call The Whole Thing Off, 1957

Things have come to a pretty pass
Our romance is growing flat,
For you like this and the other
While I go for this and that,
Goodness knows what the end will be
Oh I don't know where I'm at
It looks as if we two will never be one
Something must be done:

You say either and I say either, You say neither and I say neither
Either, either Neither, neither, Let's call the whole thing off.

You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off Then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you like pyjamas and I like pyjahmas, I'll wear pyjamas and give up
pyajahmas
For we know we need each other so we , Better call the whole off off
Let's call the whole thing off.

You say laughter and I say larfter, You say after and I say arfter
Laughter, larfter after arfter, Let's call the whole thing off,

You like vanilla and I like vanella, You saspiralla, and I saspirella
Vanilla vanella chocolate strawberry, Let's call the whole thing off

But oh if we call the whole thing of then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you go for oysters and I go for ersters, I'll order oysters and cancel
the ersters
For we know we need each other so we, Better call the calling off off,
Let's call the whole thing off.

I say father, and you say pater, I saw mother and you say mater
Pater, mater Uncle, auntie, let's call the whole thing off.

I like bananas and you like banahnahs, I say Havana and I get Havahnah
Bananas, banahnahs Havana, Havahnah, Go your way, I'll go mine

So if I go for scallops and you go for lobsters, So all right no contest we'll
order lobseter
For we know we need each other so we, Better call the calling off off,
Let's call the whole thing off.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:39 pm
by Roja
pilau wrote:If we're on this subject already...
I have an ex-girlfriend named "Gil" (Hebrew name) with a hard G. So in order to save missunderstanding about whether to pronounce it with a "j" or aith a "g" should I spell it as "Gill" with a double "L"?
Because its a person, you have multiple outs. You can avoid addressing her directly in greeting ("Hello, "), you can ask her ("Hey, I forget, whats the correct way to spell your name"), and so forth.

If you honestly have forgotten, it is better etiquette to ask, than to misspell it by guess.

But avoiding that whole issue, if it is a Hebrew name, my feeling would be that a hard G, sounding like the breathing organ for fish (Gill), I would spell it Gil. (Gil in Hebrew means Joy, or Happiness).
pilau wrote:- Another question: I know the you spell "p" as "pee", "s" as "ess" and "z" as "zed" or "zee". So how do you spell "a" and "L"? And how about "i"? And is "e" spelled "ee"?
Use dictionary.com to get a handle on pheonetic spelling. (I think I spelled that wrong, humorously enough). Throw a few words through it that you know the pronounciations for, and see what they look like.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:50 pm
by Chris Corbyn
pilau wrote:If we're on this subject already...
I have an ex-girlfriend named "Gil" (Hebrew name) with a hard G. So in order to save missunderstanding about whether to pronounce it with a "j" or aith a "g" should I spell it as "Gill" with a double "L"?

- Another question: I know the you spell "p" as "pee", "s" as "ess" and "z" as "zed" or "zee". So how do you spell "a" and "L"? And how about "i"? And is "e" spelled "ee"?
a is spoken ay (as in hay)
L is spoken ell
i is spoken eye
and yes, e is spoken ee

:)

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:16 pm
by m3mn0n
Grim... wrote:That page is a pile of crap.

Who cares how the creators tell you to say the word? The English language dictates how we say things, not a bunch of programmers.
Well if you name something, it's only right that people say it properly. People shouldn't have free reign over how they say what you created.

It's like looking at Google and saying "I don't want to pronounce it goo-gell, I'm going to pronounce it goo-jull!"

Bottom line is when you create a word, it's not a specific member of any language, so languages don't dictate how you say it. The creator of the word does...

I should add, when talking about acronyms, and if the acronym forms a word that is one you can say, such as NASA or NASDAQ, it's typically proper to say it however the actual creators do for the sake of conversation

It's confusing to have multiple versions besides the original. For example, the first couple times I heard "My Sequel servers" I was honestly wondering what the hell they were talking about. :lol:

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:47 pm
by Roja
Sami wrote:Well if you name something, it's only right that people say it properly. People shouldn't have free reign over how they say what you created.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Grim. (hehe).

While many words should, and in fact, do follow the intent of the original authors of the unique additions to the language, in almost as many, the exact opposite happens - language takes hold of the word, changes the pronounciation, and suddenly, its the right way to say it.

When the French and English clashed, the upper class Englishmen, embracing the french terms (Saxon), looked down on the original English terms for things like "Crap". Because the lower class continued to use them, they became "Coarse", and "Foul", while the french terms became "The correct term". This prejudice continues to this day - talk about language taking control - it overrode history!

Thats not the only time it has happened, either. Read more..
Two other major factors influenced the language and served to separate Middle and Modern English. The first was the Great Vowel Shift. This was a change in pronunciation that began around 1400. While modern English speakers can read Chaucer with some difficulty, Chaucer's pronunciation would have been completely unintelligible to the modern ear. Shakespeare, on the other hand, would be accented, but understandable. Long vowel sounds began to be made higher in the mouth and the letter "e" at the end of words became silent. Chaucer's Lyf (pronounced "leef") became the modern life. In Middle English name was pronounced "nam-a," five was pronounced "feef," and down was pronounced "doon." In linguistic terms, the shift was rather sudden, the major changes occurring within a century. The shift is still not over, however, vowel sounds are still shortening although the change has become considerably more gradual.
It continued.. with Spanish in the southern US, with Latin from Science, with Indian phrases (and MAN are THOSE mispronounced "correctly"!).. the list goes on.

I'll take English Leef for feef hundred dollars, Alex.

The simple truth is, None of us is as dumb as all of us, and thats why we should follow the recommended pronounciations, but sometimes, the group thinks otherwise, and the linguists have to adjust.

Welcome to the (really messy) world of Anglish.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:54 pm
by m3mn0n
Well put.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:43 pm
by pilau
Roja wrote:
pilau wrote:If we're on this subject already...
I have an ex-girlfriend named "Gil" (Hebrew name) with a hard G. So in order to save missunderstanding about whether to pronounce it with a "j" or aith a "g" should I spell it as "Gill" with a double "L"?
Because its a person, you have multiple outs. You can avoid addressing her directly in greeting ("Hello, "), you can ask her ("Hey, I forget, whats the correct way to spell your name"), and so forth.

If you honestly have forgotten, it is better etiquette to ask, than to misspell it by guess.

But avoiding that whole issue, if it is a Hebrew name, my feeling would be that a hard G, sounding like the breathing organ for fish (Gill), I would spell it Gil. (Gil in Hebrew means Joy, or Happiness).
Thanks.
Though keep in mind I habd't forgoten how to spell her name. I always spelled it "Gil" in English. And I know what is the meaning of "Gil" in Hebrew since I'm a native Hebrew speaker and I was born and I live in Israel. :P But thanks, mate.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:34 am
by Grim...
Sami wrote:Well if you name something, it's only right that people say it properly. People shouldn't have free reign over how they say what you created.
If the creators wanted it called 'jif', they should have spelt it with a J.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:13 am
by pilau
[quote="Grim]If the creators wanted it called 'jif', they should have spelt it with a J.[/quote]

That is so true. "Gif" just don't look like something that should be read or pronounced as "jif". To my opinion that is.