The merger of the frontend and backend world?
Moderator: General Moderators
The merger of the frontend and backend world?
I'm curious about this because I see more and more backend development jobs (where your primary role is PHP or whatever coding and database management/development) requiring the knowledge of Flash (and I mean advanced Flash... ActionScripting).
Now, I always have looked at it from this perspective like I'm sure many others have also: there is frontend stuff, and then there is backend stuff. The frontend guys do their thing, the backend guys do theirs. Not really interacting in each others development worlds, but of course working together on a project to achieve the goal of project completion.
I know companies out there may be tight on resources and can't afford to employ both a frontend guy and a backend guy, but don't they realize they are setting a dangerous precedent with such a requirement? I felt it was that because I firmly believed in specialization. You have your strengths, and you have related skills/interests in your field (backend or frontend), you work with that and you work to develop the related skills/interests.
I believed the more you branch out (especially when you cross the frontend/backend border), the less time you have to seriously work with each of the skills you have and that of course means, the less time you have to develop and fine tune these skills for maximum efficiency when you work with them in a project.
But a while ago I eased up on that theory and I finally picked up a Flash development book. I admit, it was due largely to the fact that I've seen so much potential great opportunities out of my grasp because I lacked serious advanced frontend development skills because of my specialization in backend fields.
I'm about 1/3 into the book and it's going alright. But I was talking to a Flash guy who also does PHP. He told me he regrets going into Flash also because frontend work is more of a challenge than backend. And it's even more of a challenge when you have to do frontend on top of the backend stuff. It's so, he thinks, because frontend stuff is largely about creativity, there isn't a set algorithm for the process and there isn't the ability to come up with an algorithm for a process and it isn't just a matter of doing the work after you get the algorithm. It's about being different than the competition because it's all about appearance. It's about pleasing the client. It's about cross-platform compliance. It's about making the system user-friendly. It's about making the design more and more appealing with flashy graphics, and etc. But the main thing he felt was bad about it was the fact that most of the work he did was frontend stuff now and not the backend stuff, and his passion for web development came from the backend stuff, and that's where the enjoyment really came out of.
Now I started off doing just static sites with graphics, so I didn't start off with database development and Windows programming or anything, but I'm with him about backend being more enjoyable than frontend. Not necessarily more easy, because programming isn't exactly a walk in the park all the time, but it's definitely more fun to me than frontend work.
So to finish off this rant, my poll question is, if you were able to learn advanced frontend development with hopes of landing more jobs, would you take on that challenge, or would you stick to backend development primarily for whichever reason (more enjoyment, specialization benefits, etc)?
Now, I always have looked at it from this perspective like I'm sure many others have also: there is frontend stuff, and then there is backend stuff. The frontend guys do their thing, the backend guys do theirs. Not really interacting in each others development worlds, but of course working together on a project to achieve the goal of project completion.
I know companies out there may be tight on resources and can't afford to employ both a frontend guy and a backend guy, but don't they realize they are setting a dangerous precedent with such a requirement? I felt it was that because I firmly believed in specialization. You have your strengths, and you have related skills/interests in your field (backend or frontend), you work with that and you work to develop the related skills/interests.
I believed the more you branch out (especially when you cross the frontend/backend border), the less time you have to seriously work with each of the skills you have and that of course means, the less time you have to develop and fine tune these skills for maximum efficiency when you work with them in a project.
But a while ago I eased up on that theory and I finally picked up a Flash development book. I admit, it was due largely to the fact that I've seen so much potential great opportunities out of my grasp because I lacked serious advanced frontend development skills because of my specialization in backend fields.
I'm about 1/3 into the book and it's going alright. But I was talking to a Flash guy who also does PHP. He told me he regrets going into Flash also because frontend work is more of a challenge than backend. And it's even more of a challenge when you have to do frontend on top of the backend stuff. It's so, he thinks, because frontend stuff is largely about creativity, there isn't a set algorithm for the process and there isn't the ability to come up with an algorithm for a process and it isn't just a matter of doing the work after you get the algorithm. It's about being different than the competition because it's all about appearance. It's about pleasing the client. It's about cross-platform compliance. It's about making the system user-friendly. It's about making the design more and more appealing with flashy graphics, and etc. But the main thing he felt was bad about it was the fact that most of the work he did was frontend stuff now and not the backend stuff, and his passion for web development came from the backend stuff, and that's where the enjoyment really came out of.
Now I started off doing just static sites with graphics, so I didn't start off with database development and Windows programming or anything, but I'm with him about backend being more enjoyable than frontend. Not necessarily more easy, because programming isn't exactly a walk in the park all the time, but it's definitely more fun to me than frontend work.
So to finish off this rant, my poll question is, if you were able to learn advanced frontend development with hopes of landing more jobs, would you take on that challenge, or would you stick to backend development primarily for whichever reason (more enjoyment, specialization benefits, etc)?
- Chris Corbyn
- Breakbeat Nuttzer
- Posts: 13098
- Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:57 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
My job at the moment requires me to do both front-end and backend work.
I'm working heavily in OOP/PHP5 half the time along with lots of database stuff. The rest of the time I'm creating layouts, writing DHTML and a little bit of graphics. I love it! It keeps my mind occupied to be able to hop around between jobs like this and it also means I can legitimately put it on my CV as real experience. I've never done Flash stuff though... I don't work on windows machines so it's not easily done at the moment.
I'm working heavily in OOP/PHP5 half the time along with lots of database stuff. The rest of the time I'm creating layouts, writing DHTML and a little bit of graphics. I love it! It keeps my mind occupied to be able to hop around between jobs like this and it also means I can legitimately put it on my CV as real experience. I've never done Flash stuff though... I don't work on windows machines so it's not easily done at the moment.
-
alex.barylski
- DevNet Evangelist
- Posts: 6267
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: Winnipeg
I was watching CityTV Edmonton...I get satellite 
Global is much better
Anyways, the sports guy predicted Canada to loose to the Czech in the gold medal game????
What kind of water are you guys drinking in Alberta that would make anyone think that???
Perhaps it's all that Minhas Creek you consume???
It's awesome beer if your homeless and can't afford a Kokanee
Cheers
Global is much better
Anyways, the sports guy predicted Canada to loose to the Czech in the gold medal game????
What kind of water are you guys drinking in Alberta that would make anyone think that???
Perhaps it's all that Minhas Creek you consume???
It's awesome beer if your homeless and can't afford a Kokanee
Cheers
- shiznatix
- DevNet Master
- Posts: 2745
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:57 pm
- Location: Tallinn, Estonia
- Contact:
My friends are all about the front end stuff, they love the graphics and everything. I cant do it, I probably COULD do it but I am just not creative at it. My friends tried to show me some of that stuff and I was like wow, this is dull (to me at least). This goes the same way for them when I try to teach them PHP and whatnot. They just don't care.
IMO It takes a certain type of person to be able to really do some good frontend stuff and a completly different person to do backend...IF you want the project to be done to perfection.
I enjoy working in the pair system. One guy is doing the front end and you do the backend but you both give eachother ideas. Makes the work flow better (lots more fun if you get along with the other guy) and you almost always give a better product than if just 1 person does it all. I think that companies will realize that if they try to get 1 guy to do the whole thing.
Also, doing both on larger projects is just too much I say. Can't a man get a break!
IMO It takes a certain type of person to be able to really do some good frontend stuff and a completly different person to do backend...IF you want the project to be done to perfection.
I enjoy working in the pair system. One guy is doing the front end and you do the backend but you both give eachother ideas. Makes the work flow better (lots more fun if you get along with the other guy) and you almost always give a better product than if just 1 person does it all. I think that companies will realize that if they try to get 1 guy to do the whole thing.
Also, doing both on larger projects is just too much I say. Can't a man get a break!
- John Cartwright
- Site Admin
- Posts: 11470
- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:10 am
- Location: Toronto
- Contact:
- Maugrim_The_Reaper
- DevNet Master
- Posts: 2704
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:43 am
- Location: Ireland
I think the division is largely going to be based on complexity - if the frontend work is not based on a largely specialised technology, and does not require a major design effort than most people are going to view it as a PHP job - afterall what is PHP used for?
Maybe it's simply a false perception on employer's behalf.
For myself I'd usually end up doing the frontend to some degree. I'm not a great designer, but I can push out a clean frontend if its not expected to be a complex work of art stuffed with flash. CSS itself does lend itself to re-use, so that comes in handy.
For myself I'd usually end up doing the frontend to some degree. I'm not a great designer, but I can push out a clean frontend if its not expected to be a complex work of art stuffed with flash. CSS itself does lend itself to re-use, so that comes in handy.
I started out the opposite direction: I knew frontend first, and migrated to backend.
I was a webdesigner and webhoster by trade when I stumbled onto Blacknova Traders, and with it, learned PHP. I already had a strong knowledge of advanced frontend programming, and found plenty more that I wanted to accomplish (which php let me do).
However, I hate Flash, so if I were to focus my efforts it would be on SVG, WAP, and the like.. All fairly challenging, and certainly advanced, but not flash-oriented.
I don't agree that frontend is more complicated. Frontend can be more frustrating, in my opinion, mostly because Microsoft doesn't implement the standards correctly in its browser. Since we can't ignore a browser with 80%+ market share, that means we have to work around their bugs often. With the backend, php follows the rules pretty consistently, making it a bit less frustrating.
Frontend programming got me into my current career in Information Security (weird, long story), so I won't ever turn my back on it. Backend programming simply extends that knowledge. Notably, your poll is biased in that it assumes that people don't do both already, and assumes no one does frontend but little backend yet. I'm the former, and I know at least one of the latter that visits this site to learn more.
At any rate, I think they both have their place, and one person can definitely do both. Neither is more complicated than the other, although frontend is certainly more frustrating. Since I already do Frontend (and Backend), the question (with the answers as they are now) doesn't fit my situation.
I was a webdesigner and webhoster by trade when I stumbled onto Blacknova Traders, and with it, learned PHP. I already had a strong knowledge of advanced frontend programming, and found plenty more that I wanted to accomplish (which php let me do).
However, I hate Flash, so if I were to focus my efforts it would be on SVG, WAP, and the like.. All fairly challenging, and certainly advanced, but not flash-oriented.
I don't agree that frontend is more complicated. Frontend can be more frustrating, in my opinion, mostly because Microsoft doesn't implement the standards correctly in its browser. Since we can't ignore a browser with 80%+ market share, that means we have to work around their bugs often. With the backend, php follows the rules pretty consistently, making it a bit less frustrating.
Frontend programming got me into my current career in Information Security (weird, long story), so I won't ever turn my back on it. Backend programming simply extends that knowledge. Notably, your poll is biased in that it assumes that people don't do both already, and assumes no one does frontend but little backend yet. I'm the former, and I know at least one of the latter that visits this site to learn more.
At any rate, I think they both have their place, and one person can definitely do both. Neither is more complicated than the other, although frontend is certainly more frustrating. Since I already do Frontend (and Backend), the question (with the answers as they are now) doesn't fit my situation.
-
alex.barylski
- DevNet Evangelist
- Posts: 6267
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: Winnipeg
IMHO It's best to keep the two seperated.
I've personally been cracking away at keyboards long before there was any reason (or products like Photoshop) to output anything fancy, but in the last few years, I've really gained interest in Photoshop.
I understand many features in photoshop and can sometimes even emulate cool wicked graphics. I've followed many tutorials
Anyways, my point...
I certainly lack that magic touch that a "good" designer has...I consider myself creative...but maybe not visually???
I like coming up with web app interfaces and themes, but I'm never fully satisified with results...
My point is...
They are certainly two very distinct and different fields of expertise...neither is more difficult than the next...however I would say computer science has the potential to be more complicated...
Anything is difficult if you don't understand it...
So yea, I say, by all means learn both, but specialize in one...IMHO their to different and require differnt kinds of people...but are fun to experiment in...
Any boss thats tells you, you should do both...I would say this: "Show me one designer/developer who does an awesome job in both and I'll show you a mutex developer or designer who does an even better job"
Just my two cents
I've personally been cracking away at keyboards long before there was any reason (or products like Photoshop) to output anything fancy, but in the last few years, I've really gained interest in Photoshop.
I understand many features in photoshop and can sometimes even emulate cool wicked graphics. I've followed many tutorials
Anyways, my point...
I certainly lack that magic touch that a "good" designer has...I consider myself creative...but maybe not visually???
I like coming up with web app interfaces and themes, but I'm never fully satisified with results...
My point is...
They are certainly two very distinct and different fields of expertise...neither is more difficult than the next...however I would say computer science has the potential to be more complicated...
Anything is difficult if you don't understand it...
So yea, I say, by all means learn both, but specialize in one...IMHO their to different and require differnt kinds of people...but are fun to experiment in...
Any boss thats tells you, you should do both...I would say this: "Show me one designer/developer who does an awesome job in both and I'll show you a mutex developer or designer who does an even better job"
Just my two cents