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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:38 am
by Oren
I totally agree with everything being said on this topic.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:53 am
by Chris Corbyn
someberry wrote:Also, what was with the...
Again, who would really do that in a real life situation?
You wouldn't. But I can see why that particular question might be in there. It's syntactical and I'd expect people to know about how PHP manages octal and hexadecimal numbers. It's fairer than most of those other questions.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:02 am
by timvw
If you really care about certficates, enroll in a university and get real degree...
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:11 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
...which is what you probably should have if at all possible

. Sure beats the Zend Cert. alone.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:50 am
by cj5
timvw wrote:If you really care about certficates, enroll in a university and get real degree...
A degree for PHP LMAO. If it was for more complex languages I would agree with that or applied programming, but this is PHP, a language made for building websites. Degrees are crap. There are plenty of coders out there who are self taught, and are can out code any stooge who spent 4 years and thousands of his/her dollars on a piece of paper. Teaching yourself is the best way.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:52 am
by Ree
The test is pure crap. Why do I have to know what happens when you pass an elephant to count()?
If they think such tests have some value, they could make the questions more related to real life, for example, magic quotes problem, PHP4 (if used) object passing, general security stuff...
PS. I got 5/8 right.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:21 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
A degree for PHP LMAO. If it was for more complex languages I would agree with that or applied programming, but this is PHP, a language made for building websites. Degrees are crap. There are plenty of coders out there who are self taught, and are can out code any stooge who spent 4 years and thousands of his/her dollars on a piece of paper. Teaching yourself is the best way.
A formal degree is often the bare minimum employers will look for. It's also hardly useless - you get a lot more out of a degree than simply how to write PHP. There is a lot of theory self-taught developers lack unless they make the effort to seek it out. Most self-taught people actually reading this forum are in this group most likely.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:26 am
by shiznatix
Although I would not spend my money on this certificate it does have its uses.
Your some company looking to get your website up and running. You want the fancy du-das that PHP can offer. Now you are looking for a freelancer and have multiple applicants. One says they will do it for $100 but they are not certified, the other says they will do it for $125 but they ARE certified. Since the company does not know anything about PHP or how it works they can't exactally look at sample code and be like 'this is the best programmer' but they instead see 2 programmers but one looks a lot more appealing because of this certificate. Although he is a bit more expensive they will probably choose him because its like 'man we can't fail with this dude!'.
but looking at those questions the certificate itself really shows very little about your coding ability in my opinion. I memorized a thousand science definitions in highschool to pass my tests but that definatly did not mean that I learnt a damn thing.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
by cj5
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote:
A formal degree is often the bare minimum employers will look for. It's also hardly useless - you get a lot more out of a degree than simply how to write PHP. There is a lot of theory self-taught developers lack unless they make the effort to seek it out. Most self-taught people actually reading this forum are in this group most likely.
Not in the US. I don't have a degree in Computer Science, and I am turning down offers all the time. Yes, there is a certain value in a degree, but it doesn't teach you how to deal with real world situations (i.e. security, working in a team, project management, etc...). Higher education is overrated. Benjamin Franklin didn't go to college for engineering to wield the knowledge of electricity, and without that we'd all be without programming anyhow. College and certifications don't make great programmers.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:07 am
by GM
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote:
College and certifications don't make great programmers.
True, but I think it helps to know a bit of theory, as well as the practical side of programming. My degree is in Maths, and this teaches - if nothing else - a certain way of thinking about problems, which I've found very useful in my work (previously worked as a programmer, now I do it more as a hobby). However, I wish that instead of Maths I'd done Computer Sciences or summat similar, because I feel that I've missed out on a lot of theory.
BTW... why is it that 3 times out of 4 when I click the Submit button I get a 404 error, and have to click the back button, refresh the page, and then try again?
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:10 am
by someberry
cj5 wrote:Yes, there is a certain value in a degree, but it doesn't teach you how to deal with real world situations (i.e. security, working in a team, project management, etc...). Higher education is overrated. Benjamin Franklin didn't go to college for engineering to wield the knowledge of electricity, and without that we'd all be without programming anyhow.
If I am not mistaken, Benjamin Franklin was born around the 18C. I'm guessing that society didn't really have the degree of universities (no pun intended

) there are today.
A degree teaches you the foundations of the subject you are studying - how and why you do things. Currently in my second year of university, depending on the language you are learning there are different ways of teaching. With JAVA, it is very much a 'hands-on' subject, but with a heck-of-a-lot of theory. JAVA Patterns for example, UML (use case, logical and sequence diagrams), coupling and cohesion are just a sample of what you may not know or learn from self study.
One of my fellow students when we enrolled asked what we would be able to do if we end up with a degree. They (he) said "Essentially anything. You have proven that you are keen to learn and can work hard to produce results." Don't know if that's true, but it sounded good

.
cj5 wrote:College and certifications don't make great programmers.
True. At the end of the day if I had to employ someone out of two similar candidates, one with a degree and one without, I would choose the one with a degree and I am sure most would probably do the exact same.
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:23 am
by timvw
cj5 wrote:[ I don't have a degree in Computer Science, and I am turning down offers all the time. Yes, there is a certain value in a degree, but it doesn't teach you how to deal with real world situations (i.e. security, working in a team, project management, etc...).
I clearly stated: "If you care about a certificate" which seems like a good condition that must be fullfilled for my statement to be true.
How can you make a statement about a what a degree can/will teach you if you don't have one? (At best, you're talking out second hand)
I agree that your best (and only) opton to learn dealing with the real world is through experience. But i'm still convinced that most owners of a degree have a headstart...
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:51 am
by jayshields
Staying on topic, the Zend cert. isn't a bad idea if you're a freelancer looking for a quick qualification, but you'll need to know alot of functions off-heart, which as said earlier, shouldn't be necessary, the manual is there for a reason.
Off-topic, I'm going to uni in September to study Internet Computing. About employment, if you get employed by a medium-large business, you have a 50%+ better chance of advancing through the company to an important rank than someone who doesn't have a degree. That's a good point about degrees; it teaches working in groups and project management which are very important in real-world situations. Alot of self-taught programmers will never have planned and/or managed a project properly.
I'm going to Manchester, which I'm told is the best university outside of London for I.T. employment, and also the 40-something best university in the World, go me!
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:54 am
by Benjamin
Zend what?
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:27 am
by Chris Corbyn
jayshields wrote:That's a good point about degrees; it teaches working in groups and project management which are very important in real-world situations. Alot of self-taught programmers will never have planned and/or managed a project properly.
I was going to mention this.. I notice a few people saying that you don't need a degree for PHP. That's true, but *if* you're looking for a qualification they're damn valuable.
Take Computer Science at Durham University where I went here in the UK for example. You don't just write code for 3 years, you cover a whole host of useful topics:
Logic, Gammar, Software Tools (LGST) [Probably fundamental, but Grammar is pretty tough]
Testing (and advanced testing)
Software Engineering (Group Project, usually used in industry)
Project Management (Damn useful to have)
Program Slicing
Advanced Software Engineering (ASE)
You also pick up useful ideas for other languages. I think Durham cover Pascal (duh!), C++, Java, Perl (and PHP optional in Software Engineering Project).
Having a degree, although not needed is certainly a useful asset. Plenty of people have them so imagine the scenario:
Bill and Sara both go for an interview for a Senior Software Engineer.
They both perform brilliantly in their interviews and seem like they know their stuff inside out.
But wait, Sara's got a 2:2 at whatever university, whereas Bill as self taught.
Who's the employer likely to choose?
In all honesty that's going to be true with the Zend cert too... it's not as valuable as a degree though.