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WOW

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:44 am
by s.dot
I was teaching this chick HTML. So, as I'm going to bed.. i referred her to http://www.htmlgoodies.com to read a little bit more (i used this site to learn html back in the day).

I look at the text manipulation page/tutorial. They've updated it... okay that's fine. BUT!

http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primers/html ... hp/3478161

They're teaching beginners to use <font style="color: red; font-family: verdana;">text</font>.... !

What's wrong with teaching them the standard, old fashioned, (much easier for beginners) way of <font face="" color="" size="">

It's not like these are going to become deprecated anytime soon? They also don't show <b><u><i> or anything! It's all style="" now.

I'm sorry but i found this a bit aggrivating as i'm trying to teach a beginner, and I think the style attribute should come after basic HTML is learned.

Does anyone else find this a bit backwards? I don't think learning the style="" attribute is more important than learning the old fashioned basics!

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:48 am
by SpiderMonkey
I am with you on this one. I used some proper ancient tags sometimes (<center> anyone?) instead of style= because I find it improves readability.

Besides, if these tags stop being supported, my clients will pay me to update the site and I can blame it on Mozilla.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:53 am
by s.dot
Also, i don't think a beginner should be tought CSS properties and values when learning HTML. It's like.... mixing two things. That should be learned separately.

[edit]UGH, this site seems to be teaching css with html too http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/charact ... pp_92.html

Maybe i just find this odd because i like the old fashioned way and it's what i'm used to. But I think it's overkill for a beginner.

Anyways I'm going to hit the sack now, i'd love to see some repsonses when I wake up.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:58 am
by Chris Corbyn
:lol: And here's me thinking the story was going to be mostly about the chick :P

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:30 am
by twigletmac
Personally I think it's a good thing if people are taught to separate the styling from the content from the very beginning. Although, rather than going overboard with the style attribute I think it would be much more useful to provide beginners with a basic stylesheet that they can adapt in order to get text and links looking how they want. I don't get why you'd want to teach deprecated stuff just because it's a little easier to start with - since you're just going to have a situation where they have to unlearn all of that and start on something new which IMHO makes things harder in the long run.

Mac

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:36 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
I don't get it - what happened to the chick? Is there a follow up post on the way?
Maybe i just find this odd because i like the old fashioned way and it's what i'm used to. But I think it's overkill for a beginner.
You're old fashioned. HTML, or more rightfully perhaps, XHTML is data. <div><p>XXX</p></div> simply states that this section (div) of the document contains a paragraph (p) containing the text XXX. CSS is styling. There's a division between the purpose of each. So teaching one in isolation, and falling back on <font> tags ruins the new perception, and leads to misinformation and bad habits.

Not being insulting here, this was not a bad habit all that long ago!

Teaching HTML and CSS, and showing how each relates would seem to make a lot of sense. <p> for paragraph and contents, <p style=""> for how you want that paragraph to look...

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:44 am
by Oren
I used to think like scottayy because that's the way I learned HTML, but I don't think like this anymore. When I see a site that uses <font>, and yes - there are developers that still do it this way :?, I get mad.
So I'm with twigletmac right now.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:06 am
by JayBird
I agree with the article...leave the <font> tags in the bin

P.S. i thought <b> and <i> had been replace by <strong> and <em> respectively

Re: WOW

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:07 am
by Roja
scottayy wrote:They're teaching beginners to use <font style="color: red; font-family: verdana;">text</font>.... !
HTML isn't for styling. Thats what CSS is for. However, they shouldn't be using the font tag at all, but a div or a span.
scottayy wrote:What's wrong with teaching them the standard, old fashioned, (much easier for beginners) way of <font face="" color="" size="">
In order of what you will likely care about:

1. Its slower (css can be cached)
2. Its harder to maintain (change a color across the entire 100-page site you've built. You have 1 minute, and can't use search/replace.)
3. The font tag is deprecated, and isn't supported in xhtml specs and strict browsers, making it hard to migrate sites using it to xhtml
scottayy wrote:It's not like these are going to become deprecated anytime soon?
Soon? Try SEVEN YEARS AGO. The font tag was deprecated in 1999!
scottayy wrote:They also don't show <b><u><i> or anything! It's all style="" now.
It depends on the context, whether thats right or not. There is a bit of confusion about the fact that most people use bold and italics tags when they really should be using strong and emphasis tags (thats not always true either!). The challenge is that its not a simple search and replace. Because it requires a human being to make a judgement call, plenty of confusion arises.

The best two articles I've read on Semantic HTML, and choosing the right tags are:
http://brainstormsandraves.com/articles ... structure/
http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/news-events/a ... chtml.html
scottayy wrote:I'm sorry but i found this a bit aggrivating as i'm trying to teach a beginner, and I think the style attribute should come after basic HTML is learned.
For me, the seperation between HTML and CSS *is* basic, and should be the very first thing taught. You start with the general concepts:

1. HTML is for content
2. CSS is for styling (presentation) that content

With those two key points, everything else makes a lot more sense.
scottayy wrote:Does anyone else find this a bit backwards? I don't think learning the style="" attribute is more important than learning the old fashioned basics!
I think you learned the old fashioned HTML (back when style was part of it), but now want to pass your knowledge on, only to find that the rules have changed - which means you can't teach it exactly the way you learned it.

Remember, the way you learned it ISN'T the best way to teach it, because you've since learned quite a bit. You've learned the value of HTML valid code, seperating CSS from HTML, good structure, and more. All of those things are advantages, so add them into what you are teaching, so your student will be BETTER than you were after learning "the basics", back in the day.

Teachers should strive not to duplicate the teaching they received, but to better it.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:33 pm
by daedalus__
/agree

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:33 pm
by Christopher
Two questions:

1. Why would you add style="" to a <font> tag? Styling should go on an actual container, not a deprecated formatting tag. Would you do <b style="font-weight: normal;"> ?

2. What about the chick? I mean, what kind of a story is: "I was teaching this chick HTML. So, as I'm going to bed.. i referred her to http://www.htmlgoodies.com to read a little bit more . . . "?!? Did you pick her up with the line, "Hey baby, wanna learn some HTML ..."?


PS - I agree with those that think you should teach the CSS way to do things.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:07 pm
by Nathaniel
WOW guys, why is scottayy having a social life such a big deal? :D

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:30 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
Nathaniel wrote:WOW guys, why is scottayy having a social life such a big deal? :D
Because it is a foreign concept to them. :twisted:

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:15 pm
by Chris Corbyn
arborint wrote:Did you pick her up with the line, "Hey baby, wanna learn some HTML ..."?
Someone I know was picked up last year by a (less fortunate) chick with the line "do you wanna watch black adder?" He thought it to be a perfectly innocent and generous request until he got back :P

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:21 pm
by Christopher
d11wtq wrote:Someone I know was picked up last year by a (less fortunate) chick with the line "do you wanna watch black adder?" He thought it to be a perfectly innocent and generous request until he got back :P
Sounds like it was a Cunning Plan ...