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This is funny...

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:15 pm
by Benjamin
I was just browsing around and I found this guys resume. His resume was bragging about how well he knew php, css, html, xhtml, etc.. and about how long he had been working with all of these technologies.

It went on to talk about everything he had accomplished and who he had worked for.

I got tired of reading it and said well let's see his work, screw what the resume says.

Right click - view source...

The resume was created in Microsoft Frontpage.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:21 am
by daedalus__
He's a winner, I'd hire him.

$4 an hour without overtime scrubbing my toilet!

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:44 am
by shiznatix
do not start this flame war against frontpage again please kids. this happened before and it got ugly.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:29 am
by RobertGonzalez
I don't think this is a flamewar, frontpage bashing thing. I think the dude might be taking credit for developng something that his software is taking care of most of. I would snear at that, too.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:47 am
by Benjamin
I find it funny that this person created a resume in frontpage, especially considering what the content of the resume listed his skillsets as.

(PHP, CSS, JavaScript, MySQL, Ajax, to name a few)

Here's what I think...
  • A web developer should be well versed in html and xhtml right? Although WYSIWYG editors may be able to increase productivity, I certainly wouldn't hire a developer who depended on one. In fact if I put an applicant in front of a computer with notepad.exe and told them to type in a basic web page, I would expect them to be able to create one in less than a few minutes. Not anything incredible mind you, just proper opening and closing html, head, body tags and maybe a table or two with a little bit of css.
  • A resume is a chance for you to showcase your skills. If your a web developer, and you create a web page with your resume on it, one would hope that you at least put some effort and pride into it. I know I take pride in the code I write, and the quality of it is increasing quite a bit as I get more knowledgeable.
  • Pushing validation aside, if I were to review the source code of a resume from a potential applicant and found it to be a horrendous mess, I wouldn't hire him/her. The way I look at it, if they either don't have the skill or the pride to write decent code, then they aren't a match for any job I might have for them.
I could go on but those are the three main things. I'm not saying anything is wrong with frontpage, but I will say that frontpage has no place in my development environment. If someone wants to get upset about that and start a flame war I won't participate in it.

I found it funny, I still find it funny, and as I said before I certainly wouldn't hire the individual.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:58 am
by Oren
astions wrote:I find it funny that this person created a resume in frontpage, especially considering what the content of the resume listed his skillsets as.

(PHP, CSS, JavaScript, MySQL, Ajax, to name a few)

Here's what I think...
  • A web developer should be well versed in html and xhtml right? Although WYSIWYG editors may be able to increase productivity, I certainly wouldn't hire a developer who depended on one. In fact if I put an applicant in front of a computer with notepad.exe and told them to type in a basic web page, I would expect them to be able to create one in less than a few minutes. Not anything incredible mind you, just proper opening and closing html, head, body tags and maybe a table or two with a little bit of css.
  • A resume is a chance for you to showcase your skills. If your a web developer, and you create a web page with your resume on it, one would hope that you at least put some effort and pride into it. I know I take pride in the code I write, and the quality of it is increasing quite a bit as I get more knowledgeable.
  • Pushing validation aside, if I were to review the source code of a resume from a potential applicant and found it to be a horrendous mess, I wouldn't hire him/her. The way I look at it, if they either don't have the skill or the pride to write decent code, then they aren't a match for any job I might have for them.
I could go on but those are the three main things. I'm not saying anything is wrong with frontpage, but I will say that frontpage has no place in my development environment. If someone wants to get upset about that and start a flame war I won't participate in it.

I found it funny, I still find it funny, and as I said before I certainly wouldn't hire the individual.
astions is so damn right!
astions wrote:I certainly wouldn't hire a developer who depended on one
One fix... You cannot even call these guys "developers" :P

In my opinion, the only case where using Frontpage is ok, is for personal sites, you know... the sites that someone who has no knowledge about any client-side language create for himself.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:56 am
by Roja
astions wrote:I find it funny that this person created a resume in frontpage, especially considering what the content of the resume listed his skillsets as.
Why? He used a comfortable tool to produce desired results quickly.

Focus on the deliverable, not the methods used to get there.
astions wrote:A web developer should be well versed in html and xhtml right? Although WYSIWYG editors may be able to increase productivity, I certainly wouldn't hire a developer who depended on one.
Why does using one to produce a resume in your mind mean he depends on it?
astions wrote:In fact if I put an applicant in front of a computer with notepad.exe and told them to type in a basic web page, I would expect them to be able to create one in less than a few minutes. Not anything incredible mind you, just proper opening and closing html, head, body tags and maybe a table or two with a little bit of css.
Who says he can't? His resume explicitly states he has that knowledge, so perhaps he can.
astions wrote:Pushing validation aside, if I were to review the source code of a resume from a potential applicant and found it to be a horrendous mess, I wouldn't hire him/her. The way I look at it, if they either don't have the skill or the pride to write decent code, then they aren't a match for any job I might have for them.
That much I agree with to an extent - judge on their ability. But one example only? Nah.
astions wrote:I could go on but those are the three main things. I'm not saying anything is wrong with frontpage, but I will say that frontpage has no place in my development environment. If someone wants to get upset about that and start a flame war I won't participate in it.
You started the flame war. You are making bad logical assertions (using Frontpage = bad coder), and thats flamebait. I could go on and on about how many threads we get from people using Dreamweaver, and how almost every SINGLE time their problem is due to that program. But doing so would be flamebait.

Tools that developers choose to use for *one* example do not indicate their ability, their talent, or anything else beyond the fact that they chose to use it for that example!

For the record, I used Frontpage until last year for *all* of my design mockups, and now I use NVU - which is an opensource GUI webeditor that is surprisingly similar.

Glad I wouldn't work for you.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:01 am
by Benjamin
Your fired :twisted:

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:42 am
by Benjamin
Roja wrote:Why? He used a comfortable tool to produce desired results quickly.
My comfortable tool is a text editor. But let's say for a moment my comfortable tool was frontpage.. I would at least go through the source code and clean it up a little bit. Are you going to tell me you wouldn't? The only reason I wouldn't is if I didn't really care about getting the job. Why should one hire someone who "doesn't care"?
Roja wrote:Focus on the deliverable, not the methods used to get there.
No. I'll focus on the effort and skill he demonstrated in the source code of his resume, which I believe should be a few notches above his average quality.
Roja wrote:Who says he can't? His resume explicitly states he has that knowledge, so perhaps he can.
Maybe he can, but he isn't going to get a chance to prove it... He already lost his chance for an interview
Roja wrote:That much I agree with to an extent - judge on their ability. But one example only? Nah.
People have lost interviews and jobs because the watermark on the resume was upside down. Yes, that one example only.
Roja wrote:You started the flame war.
No I didn't
Roja wrote:You are making bad logical assertions (using Frontpage = bad coder)
That is subjective.
Roja wrote:and thats flamebait.
I never said using frontpage = bad coder, I said I wouldn't hire someone who made their resume in frontpage. Why do you have to be so serious all the time. You should relax.
Roja wrote:I could go on and on about how many threads we get from people using Dreamweaver, and how almost every SINGLE time their problem is due to that program.
Sounds interesting.
Roja wrote:But doing so would be flamebait.
We don't want to light anything on fire heh.
Roja wrote:Tools that developers choose to use for *one* example do not indicate their ability, their talent, or anything else beyond the fact that they chose to use it for that example!
I agree with that. But given the fact that you love the css validator, and all things being equal, would you hire the individual with the frontpage resume, or the one who hand coded a standards compliant resume?
Roja wrote:Glad I wouldn't work for you.
That is taking it a bit too far.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:50 am
by jason
I've used Front Page.

And Dreamweaver. And other HTML Authoring programs. In my line of business, it's smart of me to know how to use these programs, and in some cases, use them. I don't enjoy using them over coding, but pragmatism outweighs idealism. If my client is using FrontPage, or Dreamweaver, to do something, and they are having a problem, it's important that I am able to troubleshoot problems they may have. This requires me to not only know how to use these programs, but to also know how they don't work and where the problems lie.

As for a resume in Frontpage, I'd assume it was Word, which used the FrontPage engine to output the HTML for his resume. I know I've done that before in haste to get my resume in HTML format. I'm a programmer, not a graphic designer, and frankly, I have better things to do then mess around with CSS and XHTML for my resume. I've hired a number of developers, and frankly, at no stage did the format of the resume concern me as long as it was readable and organized. Some would fax it, some would email it inline, some would attach it, some would attach it as a ZIP.

For me, the most important thing in a resume is giving me an overview of the person, his knowledge, skills, and any references he might point me to. The simple fact is, the code behind the resume means little to me. I want real world projects, real experience, and real knowledge. And it's on those real projects that I will view source, inspect, play around, and otherwise see what this person did.

But really, at the end of the day, the resume doesn't get you the job. It's only purpose is to get you the interview.

Note: And honestly, I've had to deal with more Dreamweaver problems than FrontPage problems.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:52 am
by RobertGonzalez
Astions and Roja, can't we all just get along? :D Seriously, you guys shold take off the boxing gloves and go grab a beer. Put this forum fighting crap behind you. It makes for good discussion and learning and all, but come on...

I have used Dreamweaver and Frontpage. Can't really stand either. Zend Studio or notepad++ and I am good. Not really a fan of developers that depend on tools like this, but using is no crime. As long as you know your stuff you are OK in my book. But to say that you are a developer that is versed in (X)HTML or CSS requires some backup, and in my opinion, saying you can use a web page making GUI is not backup enough. But that is just me.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:00 am
by Benjamin
jason wrote: For me, the most important thing in a resume is giving me an overview of the person, his knowledge, skills, and any references he might point me to. The simple fact is, the code behind the resume means little to me. I want real world projects, real experience, and real knowledge. And it's on those real projects that I will view source, inspect, play around, and otherwise see what this person did.
I agree with that, on the condition that there are demonstrated accomplishments which can be reviewed, in that case I would overlook the resume. But I know that if I was to publish a resume for web development (maybe I am just a perfectionist) , I would make sure the source code was top notch.

I guess the whole "dirty" source code thing in a resume to me is just a big turn off.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:18 am
by Roja
I didn't express myself well.

In using Frontpage, I've discovered something that most people take as a given falsehood - Frontpage can in fact produce compliant and well formed code. I know that seems wrong, but its not.

You have to install a plugin, and change a number of settings, but it can be done. Thats why the simple statement of "His resume was made in Frontpage, so I didn't interview him" didn't parse for me.

But ignoring whether he used the tool well, as Jason points out, its about the breadth of experience. If you had a candidate that worked for Enron or Worldcom, would you pass them up based on that one job?

Considering someone for a position should be indepth. You want a deeply qualified candidate, and making a judgement on a single criteria is a disservice (in my opinion).

I didn't mean to be overly serious, as its not a big deal, I just (like Shiznatix) get tired of the quick-to-bash attitude towards Frontpage. Because you didn't mention the code quality itself, just the editor, it gave the discussion that smell.

Its a tool. Used correctly, it can be effective, and a professional choice. I've used it, I've produced valid output from it, and as such, its every bit as worthwhile as Notepad.

But like Jason said, its about more than one example as well. If *every* design example he gave was done in Frontpage, AND the output wasn't valid, AND the design wasn't that impressive, well, thats a different discussion - then it is a candidate with a lack of talent, not a candidate that chose a tool you don't like.

Sorry if I stirred the pot. That wasn't my goal. Hrmf.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:22 am
by Benjamin
Roja wrote:Frontpage can in fact produce compliant and well formed code.
I believe you, as I know you are credible, that is very, very interesting...

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:28 am
by Roja
astions wrote:
Roja wrote:Frontpage can in fact produce compliant and well formed code.
I believe you, as I know you are credible, that is very, very interesting...
Aha. Now we get to the bottom of it. It seems I made the ASSumption that you knew that. And we all know what that makes me.. :)