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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:32 pm
by alex.barylski
Whenever anyone mentions C++ I feel it absolute nessecary to add my 2 cents...

Firstly, Java developers may occasionally be the highest paid programmers (now) but not because the language, but rather more for the education most java developers come from.

As it's been said, Java is taught in post secondary almost across the aboard, whereas C++ has never been a educational tool likely due to it's complexity.

However C/C++ are still, by far, the most popular languages and that will likely not change in at least the next 10 years...

Most professional Windows applications, which are a majority of the market, are developed, still using C++ w/ MFC

Want proof? Check out http://www.codeproject.com I've been a member almost since the beginning, and I can say with confidence, it's the largest Windows community outside of MSDN communities and everyone there does C++/MFC almost exclusively.

Although C# is growing at incredle break neck speeds, remember that many of those same C# fanatics are also C++ geeks and I know from being a long time member that many are just tinkering with C# and MC++

It'd be a hard sell to convert so many MFC fanatics (myself included) to entirely switch to C# or Java.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is C++ is *still* a wise time investment and will be for many years to come. It's fast, flexible and furious in everyway...no wonder it's still around and popular as it is many years later.

Secondly, there is no difference between a developer, programmer and scripter really...we all write code, it's the language that determines the skillset not a silly label...beside technically and literally I guess...HTML coding is "programming" just a very high level form of programming...

C# is likely your best bet, as Windows isn't loosing that much ground, despite Linux getting better and better. And M$ have spent incredible amounts of money in R & D, marketing, etc on C# so I'm willing to bet it's here in the future and besides, it's being adapted nicely (again: look to codeproject.com)

Java, is an interesting language/tool, not because it's arguably more OOP than C#, but mostly because of it's open-ness

http://www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/h ... p?id=40315
http://www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/H ... earch=True

It's portability is likely to be more *truely* cross platform...yes .NET has the CLR which in theory would allow developers to write cross platform applications...but let's be realistic...

M$ isn't going to spend great deals of time making .NET run on anything BUT Windows, etc...

So Java is a good choice here. Also there are likely more portabl devices which support java than .NET, for instance my phone is Java powered :P

Thirdly, your book about Java published in 1997...is likely just fine for learning the basics...I've bought books for C++ that are old as well and still they can teach me things...yes there might be new keywords, etc, but for the most part it'll be fine...for learning the fundamentals...

Just don't expect the examples to build for you properly, as compiler switches, etc may change...but I imagine the core of the langauge has pretty much stayed static...

Cheers :)

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:35 pm
by feyd
It's funny how you, Hockey, mention loving MFC.. I can't stand it. :)

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:42 pm
by alex.barylski
feyd wrote:It's funny how you, Hockey, mention loving MFC.. I can't stand it. :)
Why? Technically, it may not be the best framework, I liked OWL as well and I have tinkered with a plethora of others like wxWidgets, etc...

But MFC is well documented in typical MSDN fashion and there are millions of people who can help with problems...plus the enormous amount of freely available controls, etc...

Fundamentally all those frameworks are much even steven, just the implementation quirks of each of them are what really seperate them from each other in either good ways or bad.

MFC is clearly written by a random team, as conventions, etc are not typically followed and it's poorly commented in many places, but for the most part it's easy going and it whats made the difference between making my flight simulator applications and using just the SDK and barely getting a few windows to work togather :P

Yup I'm a die hard MFC fan...WTL/ATL are to complicated for quick and dirty applications...although they do appeal to me, the fact they're likley on the way *out* doesn't do them any good :(

Cheers :)

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:48 pm
by feyd
I wrote my own version. Much better commenting. :) .. and it only had to do about a dozen things. After that, the system kicked into DirectX.

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:58 pm
by alex.barylski
feyd wrote:I wrote my own version. Much better commenting. :) .. and it only had to do about a dozen things. After that, the system kicked into DirectX.
Sounds like you were developing a game, in which case...yes MFC would suck...but so would OWL, wxWidgets, etc... :P

Wrote your own? 8O wow, that's an undertaking...I tried myself...numerous times but always got stuck on the damn 'Window message handler' having to be static...and not accepting that as a framework solution...

I suppose in developing a game though, even WTL may be considered overkill, as DirectX calls are likely the majority of your applications.

Cheers :)

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:06 pm
by feyd
Yeah, DirectX and direct Win32 API calls were the bulk of calls. I'd say out of 50K lines of code, maybe 1.5-2 lines were Window related. Our message pump was about 80 lines, winmain was maybe 40 with 30 of that in throwing messages to various systems.. pretty minimal. The major MFC like stuff was (ignoring the third party installer) in the first/config start up. It only involved a few listboxes and some checkboxes, maybe a couple other things. Nothing big.

Whoops, Image

ImageImage

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:12 pm
by alex.barylski
Indeed, we are off topic aren't we???

My apologies there Spacegoat :)

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:23 pm
by Luke
:lol: Irony

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:24 am
by Jenk
alvinphp wrote:
Jenk wrote:Tomcat is for JSP.. JSP != Java. (Though it can make use of Java Beans.)
Well, JSP is part of Java. JSP is converted to a Servlet by the container and a Servlet is really just a Java Object with a few unique abilities. Java is quite a large beast.
It is a part of Java, yes. But it's the same relationship as PHP has with C. :)

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:35 am
by neophyte
Huh? C is a totally different language with different syntax from PHP. Java syntax and so forth is still Java whether its an applet, serverlet or desktop application. I'm not seeing the comparison. :? Am I missing something?

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:58 am
by Jenk
Yes, you are. I am referring to JSP and Java not being one and the same, and that Java is used to parse JSP, just like C and PHP do.

Only real difference, other than syntax, is with JSP you can compile to byte code.

JavaServer Pages != Java.

Re: Learning Java

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:58 pm
by christian_phpbeginner
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:I just picked up a book (found it at work... asked the boss if I could borrow it) from 1997 "JAVA: The Complete Reference" by Patrick Naughton and Herbert Schildt. So far it's really well written. I can barely even tell it's from 1997... other than the "the internet is going to be big" attitude. Anyway... I just thought I'd share this since I'm pretty excited about it. I think I will like programming better than scripting... any resources or advice is welcome.
Hi, Herbert Schildt is one of my favorite programming books author. I learn Java since 2003 and deal with it only for 3 years. If you want my recommendations, here is the steps to learn Java when you have no programming background at all, but however, if you do have programming or scripting background, you can jump to their tutorial given in the SUN's Website.

For beginners:
Java 2: A Beginner's Guide. By Herbert Schildt.

For intermediate to middle advanced programmers:
Java 5: The Complete Reference. By Herbert Schildt.

For core programmers:
  • Just pick one of the Java book, beginning with CORE. For example: Core Java 2, Advanced Features. By Horstmann Cornell.
    Instant Java Server Pages. By Tremblett.
    J2EE and Beyond. By Taylor.
One of my friend once said: Eventhough Java is an open source programming language, but still you should have money to buy their expensive books ! And guess what ? He was right. Those documentations are just the SKINS. But today is different ! And if you don't have the money to buy all those expensive books......GOOD NEWS, I have a link where we can all learn Java for FREE, either Java Intro, Java Servlets and JSP.....even they now have AJAX free classroom:

http://www.javapassion.com/


But I won't say that Java is better than PHP, or PHP is better than Java. Somehow, the development process and development time do have something to consider here in judgement. When to choose Java, and when to choose PHP....you decide.

I am new in PHP. And actually got attracted to PHP since PHP is a very great scripting language, and now it became a Programming Language. As a matter of fact, many Java programmers use PHP. They add functionality to PHP, instead into JSP itself.
Hockey wrote: Want proof? Check out http://www.codeproject.com I've been a member almost since the beginning, and I can say with confidence, it's the largest Windows community outside of MSDN communities and everyone there does C++/MFC almost exclusively.
Are you kidding ? I learnt my first VB.NET and C#.NET from codeproject.com ! Great site !
shiznatix wrote:my advice is to not learn java. learn python or C or somthing but java is just so ugly.
Zend Studio 5 was created using Java.... :D


Regards,
Chris

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:20 pm
by alex.barylski
christian_phpbeginner wrote:
Hockey wrote: Want proof? Check out http://www.codeproject.com I've been a member almost since the beginning, and I can say with confidence, it's the largest Windows community outside of MSDN communities and everyone there does C++/MFC almost exclusively.
Are you kidding ? I learnt my first VB.NET and C#.NET from codeproject.com ! Great site !
C# is gaining popularity, but again, I noted many are sitll die hard C++ fans...

Secondly, it is a Windows centered community, but focus is still mostly C++...

VB.NET developers there often get flack for being VB developers :P

I'm not trying to start a flame war, just noting the obvious...

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:36 pm
by neophyte
Thanks for the tips christian_phpbeginner.

I've discovered the Sun site too. It's great. Especially for people who have already learned a programming language or two. I'm thinking of starting off with some applet development.

Does anybody know what percent of internet users have the Java plugin? I tried Googling it and can't find anything.

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:36 pm
by christian_phpbeginner
Hockey wrote: C# is gaining popularity, but again, I noted many are sitll die hard C++ fans...

Secondly, it is a Windows centered community, but focus is still mostly C++...

VB.NET developers there often get flack for being VB developers :P

I'm not trying to start a flame war, just noting the obvious...
C# was derived from J++. It is one of microsoft's competitive strategy to attract Java programmers, but I won't say it's a bad thing. When you come to a company, have an interview, you tell them you can do Java, now they would ask you if you can C# too.

And VB.NET ? It was my first programming language, and then C. I know it's weird. After about 2 years using VB ...then, I start to learn C++, got confused because the syntax were all different, and the logic also....I stressed so much...thankfully, Java came in. Since 2003, I have never looked back using VB.NET.

And now, since there are numerous powerful programming languages out there. I am looking only for the programming languages which doesn't have much differences in syntax. Like C++, Java, PHP, and C#. Different APIs are already caused me a headache !

Cheers,
Chris