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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:09 pm
by alvinphp
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:what about pre-built libraries to assist with ajax applications? I have heard of these:

http://openrico.org/
http://script.aculo.us/
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/

If anybody has any info they want to share about the above mentioned libraries (ie: whether or not they are easy to work with, worth my time, etc.) or any other libraries, let me know!
They do help and it is easier, but it does add a littel bit of overhead. openrico and script.aculo.us are both based off of prototype.

Prototype documentation:
http://wiki.script.aculo.us/scriptaculo ... /Prototype

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:44 pm
by bg
Book? Whats a book? There is so much free information out on the internet that I don't know why anybody buys a book anymore.

The first thing I'd recommend is learning JSON. It will replace the XML in your application and is native to javascript. Not understanding JSON left me scratching my head while trying to read through javascript code which I was already unfamiliar with. Once you understand what it is, and can differentiate between it and other javascript code your life will be a lot easier. Once you learn the syntacical differences of javascript compared to PHP or just about any other language your familiar with, all you need then is reference material for js functions. Unfortunatly there is nothing as extensive out there as php's awsome documentation, but if you're handy with google you can always find what you're looking for.

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:54 pm
by Luke
bg wrote:Book? Whats a book? There is so much free information out on the internet that I don't know why anybody buys a book anymore.
Although I agree that all the information I need is out there for free somewhere, a book is still an excellent resource. I can read a book while laying in bed, while at lunch eating a subway sandwich... anywhere in fact! Also, books have a predetermined starting point... it tells you what it expects you to already know, and exactly what you should expect to learn. Then it will build upon that, and if you did not learn what it said it would teach you, you know that either it's a terrible book, or you need to go back and read again. Internet tutorials can be a little all over the place.
bg wrote:The first thing I'd recommend is learning JSON. It will replace the XML in your application and is native to javascript. Not understanding JSON left me scratching my head while trying to read through javascript code which I was already unfamiliar with. Once you understand what it is, and can differentiate between it and other javascript code your life will be a lot easier. Once you learn the syntacical differences of javascript compared to PHP or just about any other language your familiar with, all you need then is reference material for js functions. Unfortunatly there is nothing as extensive out there as php's awsome documentation, but if you're handy with google you can always find what you're looking for.
Thank you, I will keep that in mind. :D

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:54 pm
by bg
alvinphp wrote:
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:what about pre-built libraries to assist with ajax applications? I have heard of these:

http://openrico.org/
http://script.aculo.us/
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/

If anybody has any info they want to share about the above mentioned libraries (ie: whether or not they are easy to work with, worth my time, etc.) or any other libraries, let me know!
The do help and it is easier, but it does add a littel bit of overhead. openrico and script.aculo.us are both based off of prototype.

Prototype documentation:
http://wiki.script.aculo.us/scriptaculo ... /Prototype
Prototype is sweet. Most functionality in prototype should eventually become native to JS. But since it's not, it can cause problems. One thing it does is modifies every one of you're json objects with private methods and properties that rear their ugly head if you do any manual iteration or dig too deeply into them. Unfortunatly, it led to long debugging sessions when something wasn't acting like I had expected, and a handful of hacks to get around these problems.

webtoolkit looks cool, but it is strictly java based. Java on the back-end, javascript on the front-end. From what I understand, everything is written in java and the client side js is generated from the Java in some psuedo-native fashion.

Although it's still heavy in development, keep an eye open for http://code.google.com/p/webtpo/. (shameless plug)

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:10 pm
by Luke
bg wrote:Although it's still heavy in development, keep an eye open for http://code.google.com/p/webtpo/. (shameless plug)
Right on, I will definately keep an eye on that! How much do you think is complete? When might you have a beta?

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:17 pm
by Ollie Saunders
Books are only written by individuals who are good enough to get a publishing deal. Or in other words; people who can write well, often with a background of writing, and really know their stuff often pioneers in it. On the internet you are guaranteed neither of these. In fact the quality of writing is usually anything from poor to acceptable and the reliability of the information worse. Books are also complete. Which means you can read a book on a language cover to cover an know virtually all you will ever need to know on the topic, including things you didn't know existed or thought you were not required to know. This greatly increases your personal worth as a programmer in that field. As Ninja said they are convenient too. I also think there are advantages to the outlay of money too. When you spend some money on a book you are more inclined to read it and get the most from it.

In summary, books greatly accelerate your learning speed compared with that of the internet alone by making a lot of accurate, relevant information highly accessible.

I absolutely love programming books. When it comes to learning languages the internet is a powerful and invaluable supplement to books, not there other way round.

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:30 pm
by Luke
ole wrote:I absolutely love programming books. When it comes to learning languages the internet is a powerful and invaluable supplement to books, not there other way round.
Well said... man I love getting new programming books... I get so excited (what a nerd I am!)Image

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:36 pm
by Ollie Saunders
Yep, I've got myself "Test Driven Development" two days ago. Its really challenging me and making me regret writing so much code and testing after.

I'm only on page 20 and already learnt loads, I can't imagine all the exciting things the later pages will offer :D

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:01 am
by alvinphp
ole wrote:Books are only written by individuals who are good enough to get a publishing deal. Or in other words; people who can write well, often with a background of writing, and really know their stuff often pioneers in it. On the internet you are guaranteed neither of these.
I heard a quote once that went along the lines of "If you want to learn something write a book on it". I thought that was kind of funny.

I personally like having at least one book on a language. I once tried to learn a language strictly from the web and it was a mistake. After a few days of browsing tutorials and I went to the local bookstore and just bought a book which which was a big help for me.

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:31 am
by christian_phpbeginner
I think there should be a poll on how much do people spend money for programming books and which programming books....lol...just a thought...

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:28 am
by Ollie Saunders
I heard a quote once that went along the lines of "If you want to learn something write a book on it". I thought that was kind of funny.
That's a very nice quote actually.

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:00 am
by sweatje
alvinphp wrote:I heard a quote once that went along the lines of "If you want to learn something write a book on it". I thought that was kind of funny.
That certainly was a motivation for me. There is no better way to learn something yourself than to have to explain it to others.

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:06 pm
by bg
The Ninja Space Goat wrote:
bg wrote:Although it's still heavy in development, keep an eye open for http://code.google.com/p/webtpo/. (shameless plug)
Right on, I will definately keep an eye on that! How much do you think is complete? When might you have a beta?
Server side development is probably somewhere around 75%. Client side isn't officially started, however I do have proof of concept stuff like dynamically loaded cachable js and css. I don't expect the client side core include to be much more than a hundred lines of code anyway.

The way its looking, it will be more than just an ajax framework, but instead a general framework with ajax support built in at the lowest level. It's written in the context of a kernel which has helped me to divide object responsibility in a time tested and familiar way. I'm currently docblocking the entire project using phpdoc and have registered a domain (webtpo.org) where I will put the documentation up so people can browse the application and function API. The kernel, userspace and driver API will also be available but really won't be applicable to average users of the framework. It's really starting to come together and can't wait to show off its capabilities.

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:53 pm
by Luke
well make sure to keep us informed :D

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:16 pm
by m3mn0n
ole wrote:Books are only written by individuals who are good enough to get a publishing deal. Or in other words; people who can write well, often with a background of writing, and really know their stuff often pioneers in it. On the internet you are guaranteed neither of these. In fact the quality of writing is usually anything from poor to acceptable and the reliability of the information worse. Books are also complete. Which means you can read a book on a language cover to cover an know virtually all you will ever need to know on the topic, including things you didn't know existed or thought you were not required to know. This greatly increases your personal worth as a programmer in that field. As Ninja said they are convenient too. I also think there are advantages to the outlay of money too. When you spend some money on a book you are more inclined to read it and get the most from it.

In summary, books greatly accelerate your learning speed compared with that of the internet alone by making a lot of accurate, relevant information highly accessible.

I absolutely love programming books. When it comes to learning languages the internet is a powerful and invaluable supplement to books, not there other way round.
Well said.

You get what you pay for (more often than not).