Phpers stupid??
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Phpers stupid??
$_SESSION refered to as 'session variables' wtf $_SESSION Is an array how often do people use the term 'array variables';
I am sick of constantly seeing tutorials that explain the symptoms of problems rather then explaining the cause. Knowing the cause makes it easier to remember\understand and will help later on down the road.
(headers are a great example of what i mean as people get told not to echo\display because headers arnt sent but there are almost no tutorials (some but not many) that explain WHY headers do that)
Most php is php4 (not 5) I think this is because most php4 developers do not know how to use php5 properly that or they did not at the time they started their project. What do you think?
I think php needs to get rid of the embed the code in html approach. php is not that different to other server side languages as php is made out to be. php noobs love how they can just add a little here and there through their webpage and sure thats a good tool for people that want to add something here and there. But people that want to create a proper application should know better. Php has gained a reputation for messy code and it has nothing to do with the language and more to do with the fact that out of all web languages php has the largest percentage of inexperienced programmers and noobs.
php is not the only language where developers can code messy and ugly I have seen some ugly asp done it really is horrible. But php is known for having messy code because thats how php coders code.
Most if not all design patterns that are applicable to a server side web language work in php5s oop model this means that php can pretty much do everything needed to create enterprise applications in my mind although php has a few quirks for programmers to be aware of its no big deal.
Am I the only one that feels this way?? The more I Have learnt the more I have hated the php community. Not just because they are inexperienced but because the guys that actually do know a lot can be a bunch of elitists <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span>. Like say the guys in #php in freenode.net that are more likely to spend more time give you <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> about the wording you chose then your actual going over your actual question.
I do see how some will read this rant and say "he is an elitist <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> too" Why I think phpers are inexperienced and that many are ripping off their clients I do not have anything against people being beginners.
I should shutup. but as my closing statement there are what?? around 1500 zend certified enginiers?? I remember zend said around 1500 a few months ago on their site. yet how many millions have done php??
(I would seriously like some proper feed back and not a flame)
I am sick of constantly seeing tutorials that explain the symptoms of problems rather then explaining the cause. Knowing the cause makes it easier to remember\understand and will help later on down the road.
(headers are a great example of what i mean as people get told not to echo\display because headers arnt sent but there are almost no tutorials (some but not many) that explain WHY headers do that)
Most php is php4 (not 5) I think this is because most php4 developers do not know how to use php5 properly that or they did not at the time they started their project. What do you think?
I think php needs to get rid of the embed the code in html approach. php is not that different to other server side languages as php is made out to be. php noobs love how they can just add a little here and there through their webpage and sure thats a good tool for people that want to add something here and there. But people that want to create a proper application should know better. Php has gained a reputation for messy code and it has nothing to do with the language and more to do with the fact that out of all web languages php has the largest percentage of inexperienced programmers and noobs.
php is not the only language where developers can code messy and ugly I have seen some ugly asp done it really is horrible. But php is known for having messy code because thats how php coders code.
Most if not all design patterns that are applicable to a server side web language work in php5s oop model this means that php can pretty much do everything needed to create enterprise applications in my mind although php has a few quirks for programmers to be aware of its no big deal.
Am I the only one that feels this way?? The more I Have learnt the more I have hated the php community. Not just because they are inexperienced but because the guys that actually do know a lot can be a bunch of elitists <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span>. Like say the guys in #php in freenode.net that are more likely to spend more time give you <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> about the wording you chose then your actual going over your actual question.
I do see how some will read this rant and say "he is an elitist <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> too" Why I think phpers are inexperienced and that many are ripping off their clients I do not have anything against people being beginners.
I should shutup. but as my closing statement there are what?? around 1500 zend certified enginiers?? I remember zend said around 1500 a few months ago on their site. yet how many millions have done php??
(I would seriously like some proper feed back and not a flame)
Re: Phpers stupid??
nameless1 wrote: I should shutup.
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alex.barylski
- DevNet Evangelist
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- John Cartwright
- Site Admin
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PHP as an enterprise language, I would like to see develop more object oriented. PHP as the open source, easy to learn, great communities (I don't know why you think there arn't any good communities out there, I can think of at least 2) I would like to see stay the way it is.'
I would dare venture to say that most PHP'ers are hobbiests or lets say non-professionals, so if you want to cut that end of the chain off (html embedding, procedural coding, etc) you'll likely see a sharp decline in the popularity of php.
and no you should not shutup, I just don't think you've portrayed your rant in the right way.
I would dare venture to say that most PHP'ers are hobbiests or lets say non-professionals, so if you want to cut that end of the chain off (html embedding, procedural coding, etc) you'll likely see a sharp decline in the popularity of php.
Those are two different things, an array is still a variable, but the difference comes into play with the distinction of sessions being global and persistent. Either way, I don't know why this matters, and certainly doesn't require critical thinking to realize sessions are just persistent arrays.$_SESSION refered to as 'session variables' wtf $_SESSION Is an array how often do people use the term 'array variables';
Point taken, although you may just not be looking at quality sources. Reading the manual and user comments, for instance, explains exactly what the cause and solution is.I am sick of constantly seeing tutorials that explain the symptoms of problems rather then explaining the cause. Knowing the cause makes it easier to remember\understand and will help later on down the road.
There is certainly the factor of having to learn new things with increasing versions which turn people off. Or.. php4 could in fact be what they are looking for -- portability (php4 is much more widely supported by hosts).Most php is php4 (not 5) I think this is because most php4 developers do not know how to use php5 properly that or they did not at the time they started their project. What do you think?
php doesn't force you to embed html content with code, although there are several situations where it makes much more sense to have that. Lets defiantly NOT get into a debate of separation layers, but lets end this line of thinking that it is great to allow embedded html to meet the people who prefer to use it, but still those of us who prefer separation. Why is that a bad thing?I think php needs to get rid of the embed the code in html approach. php is not that different to other server side languages as php is made out to be. php noobs love how they can just add a little here and there through their webpage and sure thats a good tool for people that want to add something here and there. But people that want to create a proper application should know better. Php has gained a reputation for messy code and it has nothing to do with the language and more to do with the fact that out of all web languages php has the largest percentage of inexperienced programmers and noobs.
PHP is open source, and free. Your going to get a lot of newbies picking up this language and arn't exactly going to write quality code. This is what professionals are for. Albeit, professionals can write crappy code, but thats your fault for not hiring someone capable.php is not the only language where developers can code messy and ugly I have seen some ugly asp done it really is horrible. But php is known for having messy code because thats how php coders code.
I wouldn't base your experiences with people from the #php channel in freenode upon the whole php community. Secondly, these people are volunteers (just like everyone on these boards).. so if people can't be bothered to do a bit of research before asking simplistic questions I say it is fair for them to show the same curtosy. Your experiences have been very different than mine.Am I the only one that feels this way?? The more I Have learnt the more I have hated the php community. Not just because they are inexperienced but because the guys that actually do know a lot can be a bunch of elitists smurf. Like say the guys in #php in freenode.net that are more likely to spend more time give you smurf about the wording you chose then your actual going over your actual question.
You are seriously over-generalizing again about the php community. I take it you've had some rough experiences, but there are hundreds of thousands of hosts with PHP not installed. http://ca.php.net/usage.php. I am personally not zend certified, nor do I have any other related certificate. Does this mean I'm not a professional?I do see how some will read this rant and say "he is an elitist smurf too" Why I think phpers are inexperienced and that many are ripping off their clients I do not have anything against people being beginners.
I should shutup. but as my closing statement there are what?? around 1500 zend certified enginiers?? I remember zend said around 1500 a few months ago on their site. yet how many millions have done php??
and no you should not shutup, I just don't think you've portrayed your rant in the right way.
- Chris Corbyn
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Wow, what a way to introduce yourself
Having looked for PHP developers to join our team recently, and having looked for (new) work myself recently it's clear that (in the UK at least) there is a huge saturation people with PHP on their CVs you just would never want to employ when you delve into what they've done. We've found lots of people claiming to be "expert" (why do people ever use such a word to describe their skillset??) at PHP when in reality they've written a handful of applications in a bedroom with no real studying of good design practises. I've had the same sentiments echoed back to me from employers asking me to interviews too. There are good developers out there of course but people seem to be struggling presently to find them.
It's a shame more hosts haven't adopted PHP5 since picking up PHP5's (reasonably) solid OOP model brings PHP a big step forward from its PHP4 days. At the end of the day, PHP is a very diverse language and is extremely newbie friendly. Part of being so newbie friendly is it's forgiveness for badly written code and as a result, we have developers who've been writing code for 5 years just the way they learned it when they started (because it "just works").
Although PHP(5) lacks some features I'd like to see included (some maybe coming in 6) such as proper overloading and namespaces it's a pretty solid grounding for developing enterprise level applications. There's a wealth of information out there surrounding methodologies for development with PHP in just the same way as you would with languages like Java.
IMO, the "embed HTML with source code" approach as an ad-hoc easy-to-learn concept for newbies to develop with, but there are plenty of ways of cleaning this up when you move into OOP/MVC type architectures.
Never start learning a new language, get to a point where you can build an application that works, then feel like you've got it mastered? Three years later you're still learning provided you didn't get stuck in that rut where your ego shot up the scale in the confidence you can build a working application.
I tend to avoid the PHP meetups in our area for one reason or another.
Oh, FYI I'm not Zend certified but having looked at some example question from the test I'm not sure of it's worth (just my opinion of course).
Having looked for PHP developers to join our team recently, and having looked for (new) work myself recently it's clear that (in the UK at least) there is a huge saturation people with PHP on their CVs you just would never want to employ when you delve into what they've done. We've found lots of people claiming to be "expert" (why do people ever use such a word to describe their skillset??) at PHP when in reality they've written a handful of applications in a bedroom with no real studying of good design practises. I've had the same sentiments echoed back to me from employers asking me to interviews too. There are good developers out there of course but people seem to be struggling presently to find them.
It's a shame more hosts haven't adopted PHP5 since picking up PHP5's (reasonably) solid OOP model brings PHP a big step forward from its PHP4 days. At the end of the day, PHP is a very diverse language and is extremely newbie friendly. Part of being so newbie friendly is it's forgiveness for badly written code and as a result, we have developers who've been writing code for 5 years just the way they learned it when they started (because it "just works").
Although PHP(5) lacks some features I'd like to see included (some maybe coming in 6) such as proper overloading and namespaces it's a pretty solid grounding for developing enterprise level applications. There's a wealth of information out there surrounding methodologies for development with PHP in just the same way as you would with languages like Java.
IMO, the "embed HTML with source code" approach as an ad-hoc easy-to-learn concept for newbies to develop with, but there are plenty of ways of cleaning this up when you move into OOP/MVC type architectures.
Never start learning a new language, get to a point where you can build an application that works, then feel like you've got it mastered? Three years later you're still learning provided you didn't get stuck in that rut where your ego shot up the scale in the confidence you can build a working application.
I tend to avoid the PHP meetups in our area for one reason or another.
Oh, FYI I'm not Zend certified but having looked at some example question from the test I'm not sure of it's worth (just my opinion of course).
<semi-off-topicish>
I had never been to the php channel on freenode.net so I thought I'd check it out today. I tell you what, the OP of this thread couldn't have been more dead on about the people who run that joint. Long story short, I got my hostname, ip and username banned after spending only like 30 minutes there.
I consider myself to be pretty mild-mannered and likable guy and I think those of you who know me on here would agree...tell that 'wolfpaws' over on freenode
nameless, let me just tell you that if you decide to hang around here for any amount of time, you'll find this place is a very VERY stark contrast to that.
you'll get good help, w/o the ego.
I'm still actually kind of in shock at that whole experience....quite amusing really.
</semi-off-topicish>
I had never been to the php channel on freenode.net so I thought I'd check it out today. I tell you what, the OP of this thread couldn't have been more dead on about the people who run that joint. Long story short, I got my hostname, ip and username banned after spending only like 30 minutes there.
I consider myself to be pretty mild-mannered and likable guy and I think those of you who know me on here would agree...tell that 'wolfpaws' over on freenode
nameless, let me just tell you that if you decide to hang around here for any amount of time, you'll find this place is a very VERY stark contrast to that.
you'll get good help, w/o the ego.
I'm still actually kind of in shock at that whole experience....quite amusing really.
</semi-off-topicish>
I like the PHP community. I find it hard that you code in other languages because I have the completely opposite feeling from you. People are much more elitist in other languages then in PHP. Sure elitist PHPers exist, but it pales in comparison to those in other languages (like Java).
Like you have mentioned you can build enterprise apps with PHP and you can seperate the code just like with other languages, the difference though is PHP does not force you to code a certain way. Instead you can code the way you want.
Not everyone that codes in PHP is an expert nor do they want to be or claim to be.
Like you have mentioned you can build enterprise apps with PHP and you can seperate the code just like with other languages, the difference though is PHP does not force you to code a certain way. Instead you can code the way you want.
Not everyone that codes in PHP is an expert nor do they want to be or claim to be.
It reminds me of ages ago (3 years or so) a friend gave me a webpage of some guy selling his services guess what?? his web page was coded in front page and he did not code it by hand and used no server side technology and we selling his services making web pages. This is the part about the qualifications that i find rather... I don't know the word for it, its not annoying because i couldn't careless I just don't like it.
About the elitists and java. Most java people that I know have learnt java through uni and i think people are less likely to be elitist aholes then people that sit in #php chat rooms all day.
As for being told to get over my ego. The guy that said that to me well, you clearly had an ego by calling your self a likable guy. All I said was a poorly "said" version of what has been getting on my nerves a little for quite some time it had no ego it was just what was on my mind at the time and I could of said it better.
And about being told I am looking at the wrong tutorials I no longer look at tutorials as I find them useless now. I buy books lots of books for when i need them that or i prefer to read articles on theory. Its not just the wording used session_start() is a great example everyone bitches about putting it at the top of the screen but its very very very rare to see ANY explanation as to why. and if there is an explanation its because it sets a cookie and that is not a full explanation. Its more then this I just say this as its a good explanation as to the kind of things I am thinking.
About zend certification being useless. In some ways I do agree (a lot actually) But my point is more to do with people that are wroking being under qualified. I think i said in my last post something like how i think phpers rip their clients off. Thats because I dont think I am ready for work yet I know so much more then so many people that are working in this field and I feel that way about myself so imagine how they look to me when i am so much better than them programming wise. (if anyone gives me <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> about ego like the last guy ill slap you as i just said I am not doing php for a living yet as I want it so I no longer have to learn anything other then an api on the job that includes other web subjects not just php)
And about what was said about php does not force you to code a specific way. You have no idea how many times I have seen\heard stuff along the lines of "php is all about embedding code in html like glue" I saw a post on here earlier where a beginner was like YAY I LOVE IT. Thats fine He is new but people that want to do it for a living or open source should know better.
A large part of what I said i feel will get ignored and that is that I think things like the fact php is advertised as being the embedded web language and all those crappy tutorials out there are not being of real benefit to beginners. The part that annoys me the most is that I can tell from the way people in the tutorials write and their source code not all but 96% AT LEAST lacks proper explanation as to why and to me it comes off as if the person doesn't know much about what they are talking about.
I just want to clarify though to make this clear. The thing that annoys me is not new people but the way stuff is marketed towards them and the fact people doing this for a living are "under qualified" as i am more qualified then the large majorityand I dont think I will be ready for another 6 to 8 months
oh and about what i said about the php community. I admit now community was probably the wrong word. Looking back on this I did approach this wrong as its more towards the marketing that people market to do with php and the training for php. Its a pitty unis and tafe dont take php seriously
About the elitists and java. Most java people that I know have learnt java through uni and i think people are less likely to be elitist aholes then people that sit in #php chat rooms all day.
As for being told to get over my ego. The guy that said that to me well, you clearly had an ego by calling your self a likable guy. All I said was a poorly "said" version of what has been getting on my nerves a little for quite some time it had no ego it was just what was on my mind at the time and I could of said it better.
And about being told I am looking at the wrong tutorials I no longer look at tutorials as I find them useless now. I buy books lots of books for when i need them that or i prefer to read articles on theory. Its not just the wording used session_start() is a great example everyone bitches about putting it at the top of the screen but its very very very rare to see ANY explanation as to why. and if there is an explanation its because it sets a cookie and that is not a full explanation. Its more then this I just say this as its a good explanation as to the kind of things I am thinking.
About zend certification being useless. In some ways I do agree (a lot actually) But my point is more to do with people that are wroking being under qualified. I think i said in my last post something like how i think phpers rip their clients off. Thats because I dont think I am ready for work yet I know so much more then so many people that are working in this field and I feel that way about myself so imagine how they look to me when i am so much better than them programming wise. (if anyone gives me <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> about ego like the last guy ill slap you as i just said I am not doing php for a living yet as I want it so I no longer have to learn anything other then an api on the job that includes other web subjects not just php)
And about what was said about php does not force you to code a specific way. You have no idea how many times I have seen\heard stuff along the lines of "php is all about embedding code in html like glue" I saw a post on here earlier where a beginner was like YAY I LOVE IT. Thats fine He is new but people that want to do it for a living or open source should know better.
A large part of what I said i feel will get ignored and that is that I think things like the fact php is advertised as being the embedded web language and all those crappy tutorials out there are not being of real benefit to beginners. The part that annoys me the most is that I can tell from the way people in the tutorials write and their source code not all but 96% AT LEAST lacks proper explanation as to why and to me it comes off as if the person doesn't know much about what they are talking about.
I just want to clarify though to make this clear. The thing that annoys me is not new people but the way stuff is marketed towards them and the fact people doing this for a living are "under qualified" as i am more qualified then the large majorityand I dont think I will be ready for another 6 to 8 months
oh and about what i said about the php community. I admit now community was probably the wrong word. Looking back on this I did approach this wrong as its more towards the marketing that people market to do with php and the training for php. Its a pitty unis and tafe dont take php seriously
I have seen a few sites that have been setup at cost to a client that are obviously not professional done. There a few out there but not all are coded in PHP. The situation of people working for cash when they are not ready is not just confined to PHP nor web developers or even IT as a whole. How do you base your self to be a 'so much better than them'. I code in PHP as a hobie and do sites for friends and family businesses. My day job is IBM Lotus Specialist (which I am fully certified in). Many people with less experience than my self may answer a question straight away that I do not know off the top of my head as they are in the midst of of study. I think the saying is 'forgotten more than you know'.nameless1 wrote:About zend certification being useless. In some ways I do agree (a lot actually) But my point is more to do with people that are wroking being under qualified. I think i said in my last post something like how i think phpers rip their clients off. Thats because I dont think I am ready for work yet I know so much more then so many people that are working in this field and I feel that way about myself so imagine how they look to me when i am so much better than them programming wise.
About what you said I do agree some people learn more about some areas and others about others. Dont get me wrong I think I have more to learn thats why I'm not doing this for a job. There are just things I have been noticing its hard to say off the top of my head. Its to do with the lack of understanding. My point was that such a small percent of phpers actually get any good so thats one of the ways I rate "where I am" But also a lot of the stuff I have seen around the net has shown a general lack of understanding in many areas. There is sometimes one person you come across that knows what they are talking about but it is very rare.
If i had to rate my own skill I would say a beginner level expert. I hope you don't misunderstand that as my idea of a beginner level expert may differ to your idea of it
Its just stuff i see around shows a general lack of understanding. After looking at these forums for a while I have noticed there are some experts here. But their post count is in the thousands and they are in a minority.
I have changed my mind on some of the stuff in my original post though I do realize now that the reason I have been annoyed is not at php community but because of a lot of the misleading advertising material\tutorials\training\and a lot of the ways php has been marketed but not so much at the community. I just think that people that are in the position of writing tutorials\training and all the other stuff should know what they are talking about or not do it... I'm sure some of you may think that sounds a bit harsh but I think it would actually be better for the beginners if a lot of the documentation \ tutorials were cleaned up
If i had to rate my own skill I would say a beginner level expert. I hope you don't misunderstand that as my idea of a beginner level expert may differ to your idea of it
Its just stuff i see around shows a general lack of understanding. After looking at these forums for a while I have noticed there are some experts here. But their post count is in the thousands and they are in a minority.
I have changed my mind on some of the stuff in my original post though I do realize now that the reason I have been annoyed is not at php community but because of a lot of the misleading advertising material\tutorials\training\and a lot of the ways php has been marketed but not so much at the community. I just think that people that are in the position of writing tutorials\training and all the other stuff should know what they are talking about or not do it... I'm sure some of you may think that sounds a bit harsh but I think it would actually be better for the beginners if a lot of the documentation \ tutorials were cleaned up
- feyd
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All these things have targeted audiences. More often than not, that audience will be non-programmers or fairly new programmers for many tutorials and articles. So while the author may know far more, they have to choose to generalize and remove information for fear of their readers going glassy.
Something to consider.
Something to consider.
that is also my point. The reason the beginners all code the same way is because of all the tutorials that target the beginners but the way they code is wrong and has flaws and contrary to popular belief that is not the best way to teach.feyd wrote:All these things have targeted audiences. More often than not, that audience will be non-programmers or fairly new programmers for many tutorials and articles. So while the author may know far more, they have to choose to generalize and remove information for fear of their readers going glassy.
Something to consider.
I have yet to see training that teaches the anatomy of php properly.
by that I mean
keyword (condition) { <-- begin
} <-- end
keyword (condition) ; <-- semi colon end
keyword name (condition) { <-- begin
} <-- end
keyword { <-- begin
} <-- end
is it only me that thinks teaching like this is much better than the crappy way they teach a lot of <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span>. To us programmers its just common sense but to a beginner an explanation like that would help them remember it a lot better as pretty much everything looks like that
if () ;
if () {
}
switch {
}
class {
}
while (condition) {
}
for (condition) {
}
foreach (condition) {
}
it may seem like common sense to us but i really believe teaching should be a lot more like i just showed as its easier for people to remember if they think about it that way. Thats just one example of why I think their training is wrong
$query = "SELECT * FROM blah WHERE name = '$name'";
This is another great example of something that is wrong. Anyone with any experience should know about placing variables in double quotes and why it is bad practice databases are enough of a slow down on their own they dont needed to suffer from more performance loss due to the fact they have variables inside double quotes.
The reality is that a lot of people learn this way and then they run of and write their own tutorials when they feel they can make their own programs. And they repeat the same stuff they learnt that is bad for oo so many reasons
now another example is training where peope doing it dont know about
if ():
endif;
so they do <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> like
<? if () { ?>
<? } ?>
these people should not be training the next generation. And a lot of these people that write the stuff as i show are getting paid to build web pages for a living its just wrong.
I do agree the target audience of pretty much all forms of media for the majority of content is stupid people. Not stupid as in retard stupid as in doesnt know better. Tv does it movies do it magazines do it books do it *points to the for dummies book series*
There is a very good reason for it and that is that there are more stupid people then other people out there and its all about profit\numbers\how many people read\see it.
About what you said though (back ontopic) You said they dont show everything they know but the thing that is bothering me with the training is they are showing what they dont know and what they dont know makes me think they shouldnt be allowed to teach.
I will give you an example ok. 3dBuzz is a webpage that does free video content. years and years ago i found out about it when wanting to get into 3d stuff. It was fun enough I learnt stuff dabbled in a lot of different areas and got to see what I liked and what i didnt. But the point is they currently sell a product called "webdesign 1\2" and guess what in the contents list on their online store functions are not even listed. their training teaches bad practice yet everyone copies it. the people that wrote it clearly did it as a marketing thing as they were clearly far from an expert.
And the same kind of stuff I have seen all over the internet not just there.
Something good came of this because I jsut got home from a walk and I think I should put together a Document\Webpage\Pdf 101 tips for beginners or something like that that would clear up a lot of the mess that is floating around out there plus tips to improve.