Legal issue with FRAMES

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alex.barylski
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Legal issue with FRAMES

Post by alex.barylski »

Is it illegal for a website to use frames and inside it's primary body frame it displays other web sites???

I know some sites check for that and force the entire window area to be used their own web site...but legally, I can't see it being wrong for a website to do this, despite adding little value to an existing web site...

For instance I've seen countless web sites which are static HTML but using frames they include automotive listings or realty listing, etc...

Anyone know anything about this?
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feyd
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Post by feyd »

Illegal? No. Uncool? Yes.
matthijs
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Post by matthijs »

It can definitely be uncool. If it is illegal? I'm not so sure. A while ago it happened to my own sites. I did take action against the sites who framed mine and they removed the framing of my site.

Even if it is not copyright infringement in the strictest sense, it is on the edge. And in a court a judge could rule against you if you did it.
From http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/?p=99:
plagiarismtoday.com wrote: The reason is that framing a site, even if one does claim it isn’t a reproduction of the work, does create a derivative of it. Simply by adding a banner and logo across the top of a site, one changes the original work. The right to create derivative works is the sole right of the copyright holder, unless willingly forfeited, and that makes such use of the material an infringement.

Also, if any trademarked logos or sayings appear on the framed page, there’s a case that framing implies a relationship between the framer and the original site, a relationship that doesn’t exist and is, thus, a violation of trademark law as well.
If it happens to one of my sites, I'll definitely take action. Especially if some site just uses my content as google-juice with adds plastered all over the place.
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Maugrim_The_Reaper
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Post by Maugrim_The_Reaper »

I don't believe it's illegal - simply by virtue of the fact the host site is not actually serving you the data, merely encapsulating it within their frames. It's borderline though depending on how its presented, but I would guess a judge would be unable to pronounce illegal without a lot of shifty arguments and some element of the material being filtered/edited.
matthijs
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Post by matthijs »

Ok, let's look at a hypothetical example.

I go to the warehouse and buy a pallet of Microsoft Windows XP packages. Then I package those inside my own boxes, complete with my branding, logo, etc. Only a transparent window shows the original package inside.

I put these for sale in my shop.

How fast will Microsoft's lawyers be on my front step? :)

a) 1 day
b) 15 minutes
c) no lawyers, only a bulldozer to destroy your shop
d) ...

I really don't know, but my guess is I wouldn't want to find out either :wink:
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Maugrim_The_Reaper
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Post by Maugrim_The_Reaper »

It's a good analogy, but it still demonstrates one of the reasons everyone is so uncertain of whether frames are legal/illegal. The secondary packaging displays the original through a transparent pane. Assuming you ignore the sides and back (obscured - bleh) what copyright is being trampled on? Microsoft is making money from the sales, consumers can see its a Microsoft product (the vendor's branding is external and does not obscure Microsoft's), etc. It's unlikely the customer is fooled.

In website framing, of course this likely differs a lot. Enough framing, and a case could be made it's obscuring the true origin of the page content. Otherwise, the original copyrights, content, menus and advertising (assume no filtering) are all present and visible.

In my view it's not quite illegal - and personally (since I too loathe the practice) I'm inclined to leave it uncertain so the potential of a threat can be used to get rid of framers. The other alternative, someone declares it completely legal, is something for a web developer's nightmares...;).

Note: Being Irish, it's possible frame judgements have been handed out somewhere along the line outside my own jurisdiction - anyone hear of anything like this?
matthijs
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Post by matthijs »

There was a case in the Netherlands in 2004 in which one online shop (party A) framed the complete site of other shops. It was about bicycles.

The judge ruled that A infringed the copyright of the original shop(s). A had to remove the framing.

At the moment I don't know other cases, maybe I find them later.

In this case I also trust on what Jonathan from plagiarismtoday says in this matter.

So I think that illegal in the sense that there is a law somewhere (maybe there is?) but it wouldn't surprise me if a strong legal case can be made when someone does it.
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