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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:07 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
http://www.dailytech.com/Workaround+Dis ... le5932.htm

I think I've managed to recover from giggling. But this is the company so many trust their PC to?

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:16 am
by Charles256
Just because I'm tired of the hate on Microsoft.. : pulls off the gloves : Monopoly? Probably. At least I'm getting a good price on my monopolized hardware where as a Mac runs close to double for the same hardware. Perhaps not everyone can afford the extra price to run less programs. ;) Okay okay.. A little low but sheesh guys, come on. Why so much hate? Show some love! :-D

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:28 am
by Jenk
The only real monopoly Microsoft have is with DirectX.

Everything else is a "pseudo" monopoly. There's nothing, and I mean nothing, forcing you to use MS products (other than DX stuff..) over other products.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:12 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Microsoft has numerous monopolies (not simply DirectX) - and has been convicted and fined for intentionally persuing others. Agreed it's not a pure theoretical monopoly (in the economic sense) but it is a monopoly in fact (where real folk live). It shares all the common characteristics of a monopoly, the same practices, the same market activities, the same attempts to prevent and discourage competitors. It also has all the hallmarks of imitation, MS isn't exactly an innovative company compared to its peers, many of its products are derived. MS is under little pressure to innovate until it gets a really big shock. Google and Apple have both had their turns without a squeek from MS until very late in the game.

Also both the US and EU agree its a monopoly - both have court judgements to that effect. The US case was ruled back in 1999, with the EU following suit after. The US findings have the following:
33. Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above that which could be charged in a competitive market. Moreover, it could do so for a significant period of time without losing an unacceptable amount of business to competitors. In other words, Microsoft enjoys monopoly power in the relevant market.

34. Viewed together, three main facts indicate that Microsoft enjoys monopoly power. First, Microsoft's share of the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems is extremely large and stable. Second, Microsoft's dominant market share is protected by a high barrier to entry. Third, and largely as a result of that barrier, Microsoft's customers lack a commercially viable alternative to Windows.
Um, and no Linux is not considered commercially viable to run of the mill Windows users. I love Linux, but there's a reason it doesn't enjoy a majority market share.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:47 am
by RobertGonzalez
Is this true?
The referenced article wrote:Per Microsoft's new licensing requirements for Vista, users are required to install a Windows Vista Upgrade from within Windows XP. When this occurs, the Windows XP license is forfeited and the Windows Vista installation process can take place.
So if I install Vista and don't like, then uninstall it and try to reload XP, I won't be able to because my license will be forfeited?

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:12 am
by Charles256
in theory? most likely. in practice, no. Tell the little man of the phone you formatted your computer and you need him to re-activate your key. problem solved.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:17 am
by daedalus__
BAHAHAHHAAHHAHA @ chico

that is the middle of nowhere, ninja! didn't you know?!

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:24 am
by jayshields
I agree mainly with Charles256; stop the hate! If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple.

I will be installing it in a few months when obvious bugs are ironed out and more things become compatible. If for nothing else, it's to play the new Vista-only supported games; which you could say is a "monopoly" that Microsoft will remove support for new games from XP, but to me it's similar to a console. There's probably games on the PS2 which would play fine on the PS1, but Sony aren't going to release it on both platforms for obvious reasons.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:41 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
I'm a gamer too - I want DirectX10 and a Crysis game now! ;)

I don't think there are too many Vista only releases - Crysis was rumoured as going in that direction but they are supporting Direct9 on XP. I guess Halo (of course) but haven't heard of many more.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:50 am
by matthijs
Charles256 wrote:in theory? most likely. in practice, no. Tell the little man of the phone you formatted your computer and you need him to re-activate your key. problem solved.
Calling some helpdesk, waiting for hours, dealing with difficult and long menu's just so I can use the software I paid for? Come on, that's ridiculous.

One advantage of windows, until recently, was that you could just buy some cheap pc parts and install windows. That's why windows pc's are cheaper. But now with those restrictions, once I install a new motherboard I cannot reinstall windows? (or not a second/third time, i don't know). Or at least not without having to explain some lady on the other side of the ocean what happened? tsss....

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:42 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote:http://www.dailytech.com/Workaround+Dis ... le5932.htm

I think I've managed to recover from giggling. But this is the company so many trust their PC to?
BTW, you do know that every Upgrade version of Windows 98 and Windows XP is really the full version. You have to make one change to a single setup file using a text editor and you have a full version install. There is absolutely no difference between the Upgrade and Full install versions other than a flag. :D

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:33 pm
by Luke
jayshields wrote:I agree mainly with Charles256; stop the hate! If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple.
I don't use it.

/me runs off and hugs ubuntu

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:49 pm
by matthijs
jayshields wrote:I agree mainly with Charles256; stop the hate! If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple.
Totally agreed.

However, it's not so simple.

The problem as a developer is that I have to use it. Just 5 minutes ago. I spend hours on perfecting the typography of a project. Quick check in IE6 ..... aaaargh. One hour later now and I'm randomly adding and removing paddings, margins, line-heights etc.. just to get things lined up. Why? Why?

(and I do know the ins and outs of IE bugs. Well, probably I discovered some new ones)

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:13 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
jayshields wrote:I agree mainly with Charles256; stop the hate! If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple.
I would stop if I could but because of the monopolistic tactics employed by Microsoft I can't.

They basically locked in entertainment programming with their DirectX system. I would love to change to a different operating system but if I want to play the games I like I have to use Windows. If the government actually cared about the public they would require Microsoft to make the internals and files for DirectX public so they could be used in other operating systems. This way people would actually have a choice between Windows any anything else. This is the only thing keeping me tied to Windows. I can find application software that is just as good for other systems but it is the game market that has me tied to Windows.

It's EASY to say "If you don't like it don't use it." but it is an uninformed statement. Remember when the phone company was only ONE company in the US. It took the government to break the company up into small companies to break their stranglehold on phones. The phone company could do anything they wanted and if someone said "If you don't like it don't use it." that ment don't use ANYTHING because there wasn't an alternative. The same is true for windows when it comes to gaming.

And Microsoft definately doesn't want a level playing field. Especially with new computer sales. They still have agreements where they can refuse to let a company install Windows if the company offers an ALTERNATIVE operating system install. So if you want to sell your PCs with preinstalled versions of Windows you can't offer another operating system. :P

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:45 pm
by Charles256
matthijs wrote:
Charles256 wrote:in theory? most likely. in practice, no. Tell the little man of the phone you formatted your computer and you need him to re-activate your key. problem solved.
Calling some helpdesk, waiting for hours, dealing with difficult and long menu's just so I can use the software I paid for? Come on, that's ridiculous.

One advantage of windows, until recently, was that you could just buy some cheap pc parts and install windows. That's why windows pc's are cheaper. But now with those restrictions, once I install a new motherboard I cannot reinstall windows? (or not a second/third time, i don't know). Or at least not without having to explain some lady on the other side of the ocean what happened? tsss....
Ten minute wait, tops. I've called over seven times. I'll read the rest of your post later.
Later: No. The menu is fairly short and nituitive. Might take you ten minutes to get to the rep. Another five ot get him to re-active.