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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:17 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
If you only use the laptop to browse with IE then they probably don't notice anything. That was the one thing I noticed. When you click on IE it is there instantly like it has been preloaded in memory. If you do nothing else with the laptop then it will seem fast. It's when you try to actually do productivity work that Vista Home Premium shows its faults with 1 gig of ram.

Also, Vista Home Premium requires a lot more memory than Basic. Running Basic on 1 gig of ram isn't as bad as Premium but it is still worse than XP when it comes to resourse usage.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:19 pm
by John Cartwright
AKA Panama Jack wrote:If you only use the laptop to browse with IE then they probably don't notice anything. That was the one thing I noticed. When you click on IE it is there instantly like it has been preloaded in memory. If you do nothing else with the laptop then it will seem fast. It's when you try to actually do productivity work that Vista Home Premium shows its faults with 1 gig of ram.
Again, I don't think your assertions about Vista are fair. I run very intensive applications, several of them infact, and they perform just as well as they would on XP.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:22 pm
by Burrito
I use vista ultimate on this new laptop and love it. I haven't had any issues and it runs like a champ. I'll so far as to say I'm on the complete other end of the spectrum and I think MS really outdid themselves with Vista.

To use a stupid mac quote "it just works".

that's been my experience anyway.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:28 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
Well, all I know is from my personal experience and from what I have seen by checking out other laptops running Vista Home Premium. ALL of them use massive mounts of memory and swap file space on a 1 gig machine. Maybe I am jaded because my desktop is speedy. Maybe what you think of as acceptable is lower than mine but I want my laptop to be fast and responsive.

And I bet you can't explain the complete night and day difference between XP Pro and Vista Home Premium in memory usage and swapfile usage with the basic install on both running the SAME antivirus and firewall software.

Also, there have been tests that have shown that the Vista's filesystem is 16-20% SLOWER than XP's filesystem running on the same computer. And think about this... Vista is very slow in bootup and shutdown in comparison to XP. That's why Microsoft recommends using hibernation instead of shutdown when you are finished using the laptop. :D It gives the appearance that Vista is faster on bootup. ;)

I would like to see someone explain how MOST laptops with 1 gig of ram running Vista Home Premium are as fast as XP Pro when VHP uses double the ram and three times the swap file on a standard boot to desktop.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:00 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
Burrito wrote:I use vista ultimate on this new laptop and love it. I haven't had any issues and it runs like a champ. I'll so far as to say I'm on the complete other end of the spectrum and I think MS really outdid themselves with Vista.

To use a stupid mac quote "it just works".

that's been my experience anyway.
Statements like this can't really be evaluated unless you let everyone know your system specs. :) The different versions of Vista use different amounts of memory. And your laptop drive speed, CPU and memory have a lot to do with it. If you have a laptop with 1 gig of ram but you are running Home Basic then things aren't going to be as bad. The same thing if you have a laptop with Home Premium and 2 gig of ram.

http://blog.bluecog.co.nz/archives/2007 ... ory-usage/

Now part of the problem with Vista is their new SuperFetch protocol. Vista will attempt to figure out what you use the most and preload memory with those files. The problem is that Vista will also fill up your swap file with other files that were loaded during boot to make room for the SuperFetched files that aren't running yet. This creates a slowdown and one of the reasons they recommend using Flash Ram for Readyboost to get your computer booted faster. Also, the use of SuperFetch will drastically slow down a 1 gig computer because the operating system will try to keep the SuperFetched data in ram for as long as possible causing more swap file usage if you execute applications other than what SuperFetch thinks you will run. Apparently you can solve some of this outlandish memory and swap file usage by disabling the SuperFetch Service. For most people running Vista with only 1 gig of ram disabling the SuperFetch Service will greatly speed up boot time, shutdown and overall system operation. If you have 2 gig of ram or more leaving SuperFetch enabled CAN give an apparent speed boost when starting applications but not enough to warrant leaving it enabled.

I may try Vista Home Premium again at a later date with the SuperFetch Service disabled to see if things work better but right now XP is working like a champ and I have 8 games installed that I can play when I am not working, of which only 2 of them would install on Vista. So there is no reason for me to try it again anytime soon.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:28 pm
by miro_igov
I meant running a lot of apps on the vista, of course not only IE. Let's say Macromedia studio, MSDN 2005, remote desktop software VNC, putty, filezilla, active sync, ms office 2007, etc. And all of these can't fill my 1gig ram more than 60%, also another account is logged in mean time but it is not using so much apps.

So i think the computer manufacturer may be responsible for Vista issues but with dual core toshiba i feel it very nice.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:48 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
Now I know for a fact you are full of it with that list and only 60% ram used.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:06 pm
by John Cartwright
I ran Abobe Dreamweaver, Abobe Flash CS3, Photoshop CS3, SmartFTP, Firefox, with all the usual MSN Messenger, AOL, AVG anti virus, Search and Destroy anti-spyware, Apache, MySQL server (and all other server goodies)

Totaling 52 processes.. it came to exactly 60% memory usage on my 1gb memory laptop.

Do not presume we are "full of it"..

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:05 am
by miro_igov
Yeah, i noticed bad feedbacks from people using Vista on HP computers. Vista is not bad at all.

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:57 am
by The Phoenix
I'll share a story that I think helps here.

I played Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for a few months and enjoyed it quite a bit. I didn't see any issues with it. Then a good friend came over, and while watching me play, said "ugh, why does the redraw do 'that'"?

The screen was jerking during redraw. I didn't notice it because I had simply become used to it. I went to his house, saw it run on his computer, and had to upgrade my video card the next day because I was so annoyed by the redraw jerking.

Its easy to assume that you can see shortcomings when you are a power user. I'm definitely a power user by any reasonable definition of the term, and a power gamer (I've competed in national tournaments and won - Tribes for life!). Despite that, you get used to what you use every day.

Panama Jack is a specific type of power user - one that pays substantial attention to detail about the impact of applications. Many of his posts reference the memory use of Firefox and other applications. Those are impacts that ~95% of the population don't notice (and another 4% don't mind). He's on the far-far edge of performance concern users.

So when you say that "I use Vista, and have no issues", you aren't the same kind of user. You may run the same kind of apps. You may brutally abuse the system. But you may not notice the screen redrawing until you see a system NOT redrawing.

I'm not saying that PJ is right, and I'm not saying that the rest of the crew is wrong. I'm saying you may be looking at the same hardware, the same OS, even the same usage patterns, and not appreciating the differences that PJ does.

Take note - his preferences (as nitpicky as you may find them to be) have helped the php community by forcing him to create Template Lite and Adodb-lite. Whether you like those technologies or not, he's contributed to the community as a result of those preferences.

PJ is also passionate about his experiences, and uses passionate language to describe them. Try not to take that personally. You'll find that beyond his difficult wording and expressiveness, he's got quite a bit of good information to pass along.

On another note, there are *hundreds* of articles talking about how bad Vista is, in the very same areas PJ has highlighted: The security controls, the increased system resource requirements, and the filesystem changes. Even Microsoft's suggested hardware requirements are nearly double for Vista compared to XP. There has to be some truth to that commentary.

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:20 am
by superdezign
The Phoenix wrote:Tribes for life!
:-D:-D

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:57 am
by Burrito
The Phoenix wrote:Panama Jack is a specific type of power user - one that pays substantial attention to detail about the impact of applications. Many of his posts reference the memory use of Firefox and other applications. Those are impacts that ~95% of the population don't notice (and another 4% don't mind). He's on the far-far edge of performance concern users.
no one suggested otherwise
The Phoenix wrote:So when you say that "I use Vista, and have no issues", you aren't the same kind of user. You may run the same kind of apps. You may brutally abuse the system. But you may not notice the screen redrawing until you see a system NOT redrawing.
trust me I am as much a power user as akapj and I don't notice any difference between my vista box and my xp box running the same apps
The Phoenix wrote:I'm not saying that PJ is right, and I'm not saying that the rest of the crew is wrong. I'm saying you may be looking at the same hardware, the same OS, even the same usage patterns, and not appreciating the differences that PJ does.
sounds like you're suggesting that we're naive... 80

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:16 pm
by Benjamin
Well the fact of the matter is that word processing applications used to run just fine on 8mghz chips. To each their own.. if your happy with Vista, by all means use it. I'll have to agree with The Phoenix. Vista certainly won't be in my bubble for a long time, if ever.

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:17 pm
by miro_igov
If i was not a power user will i mention about the flawless Vista here? I'm using both XP and Vista machines for minimum 12 hours per day from many years. My XP seems working slower :) but that is because it needs reinstall.

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:19 pm
by John Cartwright
The thing that is getting under my skin is that PJ is suggesting simply because he and others have negative views and experience with Vista does not mean the rest of the world is. It is very easy to write negative articles on anything when it used by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. The hundreds of articles out there do not describe the opinions of the rest of the world either.

Seriously, do you think a software would be so successful if you could not run even a couple applications at a time? Even Microsoft has standards you know..

If you want to get a bit more technical on the discussion, it is not fair to compare XP and Vista simply because they use completely different techniques to memory management. Vista will try to cache the files and programs you use more frequently to give you a boost in performance. See http://vistafaqs.com/viewfaq.aspx?faq=113. This explains why it "appears" to be using your entire memory, however it will in fact free up your memory if it needs it.
So when you say that "I use Vista, and have no issues", you aren't the same kind of user. You may run the same kind of apps. You may brutally abuse the system. But you may not notice the screen redrawing until you see a system NOT redrawing.

I'm not saying that PJ is right, and I'm not saying that the rest of the crew is wrong. I'm saying you may be looking at the same hardware, the same OS, even the same usage patterns, and not appreciating the differences that PJ does.
No, I do consider myself a power user as well.
Take note - his preferences (as nitpicky as you may find them to be) have helped the php community by forcing him to create Template Lite and Adodb-lite. Whether you like those technologies or not, he's contributed to the community as a result of those preferences.

PJ is also passionate about his experiences, and uses passionate language to describe them. Try not to take that personally. You'll find that beyond his difficult wording and expressiveness, he's got quite a bit of good information to pass along.
I'm not taking it personal, but it sounds like you are.