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How do I know if I'm ready to apply for a developer position
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:32 am
by lafflin
Hi guys, I've only been learning php for a month, it's been a very busy six months, I have learned flash, html, css, Access and php/mysql. As well as well as becoming pretty good as a graphic designer. but I really like php, it's very exciting to me. I know that I'm not ready to go applying for a position as a developer, but I eventually want to reach that point. My professional IT experience as well as education is in networking and tech support. My question is this:
1- How will I know when I'm ready to go applying for a position as a php developer?
2- how do I get there? This is a vague question, but I figured that maybe some of you guys might have good advice such as studying for some
certification, or things that I would be expected to know etc.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:31 am
by mrkite
I can only speak for myself.
Code.
Whenever I learn a new language, I'll never really learn it unless I start using it. I learned php 7 years ago because I made the commitment to use it for all my work instead of perl. Some of those early projects were pretty rough (didn't help that php was going through some big changes at the time, I still shudder when I remember changing $HTTP_GET_VARS to $_GET everywhere).. but every script I wrote got just a little better.
When I wanted to learn ruby (plain old ruby, not rails), I couldn't use it at work because of logistics, so I sat down and worked my way through a bunch of problems on projecteuler.net
Even if you're just coding for yourself (not working on a program that will be released to the public), it won't be for nothing. You'll end up with code you can bring to an interview.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:43 am
by xpgeek
Hehe.
Of course you are ready, but what salary you want.
For starting you can work withot salary at all.
For example start discovering open source projects - Magento will be a good choice

.
Make several pathes for beginning.
If you can do it, then you are ready for a good salary!

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:09 am
by lafflin
I agree, you can't actually learn something without doing it, and I am creating a web application that will be a customer management DB that emails customers notifications and all the normal stuff that the average business would need php to do. Right now I'm sitting at about eleven scripts that interact with the DB and create dynamic web pages accordingly, so I'm not just reading I'm actually doing and soon I should have my project up and running, so that in ther event I want to interview for a position I would have it right there live on the internet.
Really though, I just want to know where I stand. am I still a beginner or am I intermediate? I kinda wanna know where I stack up ya know.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:22 am
by xpgeek
If feyd is expert, then comparison to feyd yuo are beginner.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:39 am
by feyd
I'm crotchety and jaded from many many years of programming. I don't consider myself an expert. Well versed and time tested, maybe, but not expert.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:47 am
by CoderGoblin
Always bear in mind.. You will never think you know everything until you are dead. The more you will learn, the more you will realise you still have to learn. It is what makes this line of work interesting in the long run.
Re: How do I know if I'm ready to apply for a developer posi
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:52 am
by ReverendDexter
lafflin wrote: 1- How will I know when I'm ready to go applying for a position as a php developer?
When you can honestly say that the skills you have justify the amount of money that you expect to get paid for the position. If you would't pay yourself what you're asking (or they're paying) for the job their asking you to do, you're not ready.
However, sometimes the best way to learn is to jump in the deep end. If you can get hired, the worst that happens is that you're not ready, they figure it out before you do, and you get laid off. You can probably leverage your prior non-PHP experience plus an "I'm a quick learner" to get in the door, and go from there.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:39 pm
by lafflin
Jumping in the deep end is what got me where I am, I thought of a customer management database application and all the things that I though would make it an asset to a small business. The idea came from need in our own small business, a dance studio (no I don't dance, it's my girlfriends). At the time though I was just learning HTML and flash. But once the idea was there, I committed to creating this thing and it has been entirely consuming. It's been a month now and all I have left is to incorporate the payment gateway into the application. I read one book "php and MySQL for dynamic websites" by larry ullman -I would recomend this book to any beginner. Everything else I have learned has been through internet research, most of which has come from here.
Which brings me to this: I am very grateful to all of the regulars here who have helped me out this past month, without the help I've gotten from this website I doubt that I would have been able to create this application, so thank all of you very much. I don't know anybody that knows php and I've read things on other sites, but there just doesn't seem to as many experts willing to give sound advice at other forums.
I'm kinda curious what kind of jobs some of you more experienced guys have, especially those of you who are "well versed and time tested"
Not specifics obviously, but I'm just kinda trying to figure out if this is something that I want to do as a career.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:09 pm
by infolock
The biggest question you should ask yourself, is "am I ready?".
No one here can tell you if you are ready or not. Sure, there are lots of people here who can say you are a novice, and you aren't going to do well. But, If you can safely say "i'm ready" and are willing to do some serious hours of work, then go for it. But, if you are unsure and find yourself lost 90% of the time when either thinking of simple concepts or trying to write applications, maybe it would be better to take a bit longer.
What I did was, like mrkite, decide that PHP was what I was going to code in (for various other reasons than his of course). But making the decision to stick with a language was my first step. I never really found myself "ready" to get a job in the field though until after about 2 years of learning the language. It wasn't because I didn't know what I was doing, it was because I just didn't feel confident in what I was doing...
For me personally, it was a good decision to wait, as I was able to learn just a bit more, and when I finally did apply for a job, I had built enough personal applications that I felt confident in the interview, and I was able to present ideas around their "given this situation...how would you deal with it?" questions.
But then again, I didn't want to start out at a small paying salary. I wanted an average salary. I'm sure I could have started a job in a junior level and made 20-30k / year, but I wasn't about that.
To each his own though. It's all about what you want and when you think you are ready. After that, it's just a matter of getting over the learning curve, learning as you go, and making yourself a vital asset to the company you go to.
[ps]
To go along with all that above, I'd suggest trying to answer questions here on the forum. that's what I did. I learned more trying to answer people's questions here than almost anything else that I did. And you know what? I probably taught myself more about the language and prepared myself for the "job" by already knowing how to decypher other developer's code and learning thow to either a) learn a new concept, b) learn how to make that concept better, and c) learn how to research issues. Being a good problem solver is an absolute necessity.. good luck (=
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:23 pm
by lafflin
That all stands to reason, I personally wouldn't want to work for thirty grand, I think it's terrible that a company would be able to offer 20-30k to any level of developer, what's the point. Even as a beginner I wouldn't work for less than sixty, but I guess it depends on where you live. 60k in NY and 60K in kentucky are very different. Honestly I think we should all form a union, an IT union. Starting right here, right now! Who's with me? Us IT guys make the world turn nowdays, and very often I see guys making about as much as the guy who turns a wrench for a living.
So here we go, IT professionals of America, (comming soon to eastern Europe) who's with me?
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:45 pm
by mrkite
lafflin wrote:Even as a beginner I wouldn't work for less than sixty, but I guess it depends on where you live.
The boom is over. You'll be lucky to get 40 without any experience.
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:52 pm
by The Phoenix
lafflin wrote:Honestly I think we should all form a union, an IT union. Starting right here, right now! Who's with me? Us IT guys make the world turn nowdays, and very often I see guys making about as much as the guy who turns a wrench for a living.
So here we go, IT professionals of America, (comming soon to eastern Europe) who's with me?
Already exists:
http://www.programmersguild.org/
As to job readiness, its all about your experience and what you say. If you are honest in your resume about your capabilities, thats a great start. Then when you get an interview (many are doing phone pre-screening these days), again, be honest. If you don't know the answer to a "how-to" question, answer "I don't know."
If you find that a majority of the how-to questions they ask end up with you saying you don't know, you aren't ready - for their requirements. It may be that you are perfectly suited for another company that already has a senior programmer who just needs someone to do routine work. So take a few interviews.
If you find that after several interviews, you are constantly saying "I don't know", then you aren't ready at all.
Personally, I find that honesty is the most valuable possible commodity in an interview. Telling people the absolute, unpolished truth opens a ton of doors.
It may be that your programming skills are at a salary level *below* your earning ability doing other things. I can't earn enough money waiting tables to support my family - so its not a great career choice. It may not be the right choice for you now, later, or ever as a result.
But then again, maybe money isn't the most critical issue.
At any rate, you'll know you are ready when you can answer most "how-to" questions comfortably, off the top of your head. Thats my opinion.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:35 am
by lafflin
Programmer guild, good stuff.
I doubt I would ever want to program for a company, the free lance route seems much more profitable and satisfying.
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:15 am
by feyd
...and filled with bursts and sputters, not to mention higher tax rates. A lot higher tax rates. (At least in the US.)