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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:23 pm
by TheMoose
The Phoenix wrote:phice wrote:I have, what, 4 machines that run Windows and I never have any problems.
I think some of you are looking for problems to quickly run to Linux and join the "rebel" crowd

I've worked at companies with 55,000 computers, and the #1 source of trouble tickets were windows machines.
Saying "I've got some machines that have no problems" doesn't disprove that there are problems, just like me saying I didn't get hit by a car today doesn't cause some poor guy to get 'un-hit' by a car today.
People are citing real, personal, and extremely well-documented and discussed issues that Microsoft products have.
Of course, there is no reason that you 'should' run to Linux. There is also FreeBSD, Mac OSX, and a slew of other high-quality operating systems.
The key is that many people are finding value in alternatives to the majority OS. Whether they are values you find attractive or not shouldn't negate
the fact that it is important to someone.
I think his point is that the feeling from a few posts here is that people downplay Windows because they've had a single instance of a bad run in with a minor portion of Windows. Each OS has their ups and downs, just as I had said previously.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:03 pm
by Charles256
: applauds TheMoose :
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:06 pm
by phpdevuk
the whole gaming scene on linux is beginning to grow (chipping in my 2 cents), i tried ubuntu awhile back and found that quite good and easy to use as an os, fedora is also cool. From talking to those slightly more hardcore with linux than me I believe there is a subscription service you can get which distributes many modern game setups and works well. Personally I only got as far as playing open arena on it, I believe eve online has started testing a new linux client so people are beginning to consider it as a gaming platform.
When it comes to development I believe you can get vmware is it to run windows systems for testing. I have generally tended to prefer linux boxes for my web development servers, but i do tend to prefer to develop html/php on a windows box still having originally started out with dreamweaver and other applications on windows i guess thats a personal preference. I have used os X quite frequently and find that to be a great os to use, and again i would have little trouble developing on a mac. I am fairly sure I could find programs on linux to develop with if I really hunted around.
The whole windows activation thing is a bit of a suck if it screwed up like that, it is not piracy s someone said to install windows and activate it later during the time period it gives you, my guess would be you applied some security updates or possibley service pack 2? I have had systems demand that I activate immediately after updating but it really should not bug out once you have, were you running any odd virus checker software?
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:28 pm
by The Phoenix
TheMoose wrote:I think his point is that the feeling from a few posts here is that people downplay Windows because they've had a single instance of a bad run in with a minor portion of Windows. Each OS has their ups and downs, just as I had said previously.
Lets go in reverse order. Each OS definitely has pro's and con's, so we're in agreement there.
That said, your first statement ("people downplay Windows because they've had a single instance of a bad run with a minor portion of Windows") is provably false, at least in my case, and in general as well.
I've had negative experiences with activation, GUI rendering, window management, memory management, cpu management, application management, security configuration, process management, interoperability, and stability. Then add in meta-issues like their (convicted!) predatory business behaviors which have repeatedly caused documented harm in the marketplace for alternatives, and well..
It indicates to me that you (and phice) were trying to imply that the problems were small (single instance, a bad run, a minor portion). (By the way, I'm not just making it up - I can give specific examples of each of the above and the very real impact they had on my computer use)
Taken in aggregate, the facts don't support that contention. Windows in its many configurations has been rightly identified as flawed in any number of major areas. Some users don't have enough impact to choose an alternative, but the portion of users that do, is going up rapidly.
It has cost businesses *billions* of dollars, has destroyed many companies, and has resulted in *tax-payer* money being spent to prove that they have done wrong - repeatedly (notably, at both the federal and state level).
It may be minor for you, this I don't dispute. It may not be sufficient for the majority of users to switch - thats provably true since they haven't. But it *is* becoming sufficient for huge numbers of users to consider it.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:38 pm
by Kieran Huggins
Wait for the full release of Gutsy Gibbon, should drop very soon.
I've been soooooo tempted to join the Mac side, but I can't justify replacing all my hardware. (especially at Apple prices!)
Ubuntu is certainly awesome, but what it lacks (IMO) is a decent file browser. It's possibly the most important desktop tool, yet they all suck compared to OS X / XP.
BTW - I've recently fallen in love with developing rails apps in Ubuntu / gEdit - it's not quite textmate, but it's close! and multiple deskotps, make life on a laptop SOOO much better!
All that being said, I still use XP and it's one hell of a good OS. Very stable, relatively quick. I'm not in a hurry to leave.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:03 pm
by Christopher
TheMoose wrote:I think his point is that the feeling from a few posts here is that people downplay Windows because they've had a single instance of a bad run in with a minor portion of Windows. Each OS has their ups and downs, just as I had said previously.
That is straw man argument. No one is saying that neither OS is without flaws. And the reason that people use Linux is not because they have fewer "bad run ins"! That is laughable, and any Linux user will tell you about bad run ins.
No, it is the ways that Unix makes a developer's life easier that is most important to me I think. Unix and Windows are similar on the surface, but it is the many small things underneath that make them different and appealing to different people. It is little things like aliases, or the difference between Apache and IIS configuration that are what count.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:34 am
by Josh1billion
VladSun wrote:Let's not begin an OS-war here, ok ?

lol, a little ironic when you look at the name of the thread.

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:14 am
by Benjamin
Battles are won and lost everyday. Anyone with sense already knows who won the war.
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:52 am
by Weirdan
arborint wrote:
It is little things like aliases
Err... what aliases do you mean? Symlinks? NTFS has a similar feature called 'junctions' (though it's not well-known to most windows users).
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:08 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Ubuntu is certainly awesome, but what it lacks (IMO) is a decent file browser. It's possibly the most important desktop tool, yet they all suck compared to OS X / XP.
I'm also considering a move to Mac OS when I go to purchase a new laptop. It's not that I dislike Linux as a desktop, and more that a desktop is more than just the operating system it sits on. Linux is still unbelievably great as a developer and power user - if anything it suffers from too much choice which I think confusing a lot of people. I still prefer some more polish on something I'm using on the go - which explains spending years with a laptop loaded with Windows. It might be mud, but it's mud that looks non-muddy.
Aye, the file browser on Gnome is practically stupid. You can play around with some settings but it just never feels very tactile (or some word explaining why it feels a bit clunky to use compared to Windows Explorer). Then again, Windows Vista has royally screwed Explorer to me. The defaults are all geared up to media files, with tagging and rating columns. It's also not right click friendly yet.
That is straw man argument. No one is saying that neither OS is without flaws. And the reason that people use Linux is not because they have fewer "bad run ins"! That is laughable, and any Linux user will tell you about bad run ins.
Bad run ins with Linux? Like the time I tried to compile X and it booted around Y and completely fragged Z?

. Linux is so powerful it's a lot easier to screw up by accident. If you leave it alone and stop playing it's as stable as a rock. At least when Linux messes up I can usually blame me!
bash vs MS-DOS - now there's a damn good reason why I love Linux. Windows left the command line war long long ago. The one in Vista is pure horror. Try running a PEAR command and enjoying the warning you get about the program ending - for each and every stupid little command.
Battles are won and lost everyday. Anyone with sense already knows who won the war.
Depends on which war. Who is it that runs the Internet again?

Microsoft have a monopoly but that doesn't make them the winner - only the lazy inefficient overpriced uninnovative target for everyone else. Next someone will pipe up about those good for nothing liberal Europeans who fined MS for their practices. I am heartless when it comes to such - try living on an island nation where monopolies control everything for a few years. Guess what the most expensive nation in Europe is for a clue. Monopolies are plain disgusting.
That is straw man argument.
The Celts burn straw men - ever see The Wickerman?

. Not that crappy US rip off. Go baby, burn!
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:06 am
by Paw
I just wanted to jump in and thank you for an interesting and insightful read. On many other technical forums, this thread would have been closed immediately. That's my general impression of DevNetwork, that mature, public discussions are indeed possible on the net.
Comparing Windows to Linux is even among "power users" a sensitive issue. I changed my opinion about both operating systems a few times over the recent years, mainly because I didn't get Linux to work on my computers at home, in the first place. Since hardware support gets more and more mature under Linux, I decided to force myself through the installation process about two years ago.
It took me probably two weeks until everything worked the way I wanted to. During these two weeks, I learned more about the inner workings of my computer than it would have been possible under Windows. To most people this is understandably an unacceptable waste of time, so I guess I'm just a different type of person, who enjoys being eager to learn.
After a few further weeks of using Linux, I completely switched to it. I'm using it on a daily basis, doing almost all of my work with it. There's still some Windows-only software left, I have to use there, but this isn't too bad, because I respect both operating systems for what they are.
I believe that Linux is an interesting and enriching platform for programmers, providing a wealthy amount of tool sets for your daily needs. I'm studying computer science at a University and most of my co-students are quite wary towards Linux -- that's what I mean by saying, that the comparison would be a sensitive issue also among power users. But I have to add, that most of these wary people did not even try to install Linux. It's just a matter of fact that they feel so accustomed to using Windows, that they don't feel the need for a change (even though we are sometimes obligated to use Unix-systems at University).
People may wonder why to switch or try out anyway. From the point of view of someone working professionally with computers, it is important to know more beyond Windows, since you are better prepared for any changes and challenges that may arise during the course of your career. If you are some certified Windows Server Administrator, and you never touched Unix-like systems before, your boss' or customer's decision of switching the servers to some Unix, Linux, BSD or whatever system, could make you lose your job.
"Learning" different operating systems, appears to me similar like learning other computer or natural languages. If you know more than one or two foreign languages, it probably makes you more open-minded. That's more of a personal assumption I cannot prove, and I also might be wrong about that.
For some reason I thought that non-technical people would also benefit from using Linux, since there are practically no Spywares, virii, trojans and similar problems to worry about. Your personal firewall doesn't ask you stupid questions, like most commercial ones under Windows. The problem is mainly related to things that don't work under Linux -- at least not the way expected. This is mainly related to internal and periphery hardware lacking Linux driver support, power management, computer games and other Windows-only software, so a complete switch is not always feasible.
I'm still using Windows for creating graphics, sound and music. There are still no real alternatives for Linux, yet, even though many people claim TheGIMP could compete with Adobe Photoshop or Blender would be as good as any commercial software package.
I feel I have no clear anti or pro-position in all cases. It really depends on what I want to do with my computer. When it is about web-development and other programming tasks, I prefer Linux over Windows any time. For some reason, my local development-webserver runs way faster under Linux than under Windows, given the same setup using Apache, PHP and MySQL on the very same machine (I really don't know why).
If I want to play games, listen to music or want to do some creative stuff, Windows is my way to go. I know, that these things can be done under Linux as well. But seriously, these are aspects you haven't much choice, yet, under Linux.
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:16 am
by Josh1billion
^Huge post and I actually read all of that.

And I agree with you on more or less everything you said right there.
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:07 pm
by Michael A
Paw wrote:I just wanted to jump in and thank you for an interesting and insightful read. On many other technical forums, this thread would have been closed immediately. That's my general impression of DevNetwork, that mature, public discussions are indeed possible on the net.
I second that! This is the most mature forum I have ever been on. I really like it here.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:47 pm
by Kieran Huggins
Let's not let it all go to our heads: poop.
But yeah, we're fortunate to be troll-free here. I don't understand it myself, but appreciate it all the same!
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:47 pm
by Jenk
For me, the Windows vs Linux debate comes down to control. I have far more control over my machine with Linux than I do Windows. My work colleagues are all MS certified one thing or the other engineers, running fairly complex systems for our clients. They really do know their stuff; but if it doesn't have buttons or checkboxes, they are lost. We also have some linux boxes that a few of us developers maintain for respositories etc, but als run DNS and mail etc from because we are jaded and don't want it running on windows. The last time the linux box was rebooted was long before I was in the company (I joined in March) yet the windows boxes need rebooting atleast once a month, either due to a problem - to which the only solution is to reboot to free up memory or the like - or because a "security fix" requires it.
Microsofts use of NTFS is also another reason I dislike Windows. As far as Filesystems are concerned, NTFS is a neanderthal - even to Filesystems that have been publically available for over 20 years. Defrag? Why do they still require defrag'ing in a file system created post 1990?
Then there are also silly things like the naming/marketing crap MS use.. "Access," "Word," "Excel," "Surface" - could they be anymore ambiguous? Then also to add that there is not a single technology MS have ever created - everything they have made their money from is someone elses idea; either (allegedly) stolen, or bought and published as a Microsoft invention.
Plus, I just have a general dislike for predatory conglomerates that make their way to the top by killing the opposition with (biased) underhand tactics rather than defeating them just by being better.