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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:37 am
by Kieran Huggins
Isn't that polite of them? Especially when the gist of their message is: "NO SOUP FOR YOU!"

Incidentally, that's what Google sees when indexing the site. Unless the GoogleBot has grown a body and started using a js-enabled browser.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:46 am
by JellyFish
Yeah, but I'm talking about the javascript on these web sites, mainly.

I think it's reasonable to ask for javascript as a requirement to browser a web page. I do agree this site doesn't have to require javascript. But sites like meebo and yahoo mail beta. Even devnet requires javascript for some things.

Although I don't see why someone would have javascript disabled in the first place. Every browser vender ships the most recent browsers with javascript enabled. So people would actually have to go out of their way to disable it. Why do such a thing, is it security issues?

I think we, or even just me, as developer(s) should demand what kind of platform we choose to support from our users.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:34 pm
by RobertGonzalez
I turn off JS a lot. Sometimes for testing, sometimes to quiet down sites that insist on sucking.

And since we develop for the user, we are pretty much always told what we are to support. Try going to McDonalds and ordering a Big Mac and have them tell you that all you can have today is a bowl of oatmeal. That wouldn't go over very well would it?

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:07 pm
by Weirdan
But sites like meebo and yahoo mail beta. Even devnet requires javascript for some things.
There are web-apps which couldn't work without js (like gmail.com [proper version, not the html only] and meebo, and yahoo pipes and other). They are application, highly dynamic, whereas sites you shown are not. They are simple web-pages, made for simple purposes of showing static content with little to no user involvement. What is worse, they are made inaccessible just because developers who made them thought it would be cool to use js here and there. And even with js turned on they are hard to navigate (at least first of two).

Where have you seen something on devnet that would require js?
Although I don't see why someone would have javascript disabled in the first place.
There's extremely popular extension to Firefox called NoScript. One of the most popular extensions, actually. Most of the phones don't have javascript either. Js is unfriendly to screen readers. Search engines obviously do not process javascript, so if you do not degrade gracefully, using javascript will affect your search ranks. To summarize, there's no reason to rely on javascript for your basic presentation purposes because a lot of devices would not process it and its users will get (visually) broken pages. It's ok to use javascript to enhance user's experience though. Just make sure your site works just as well without it.

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:52 pm
by califdon
Extremely good advice, Weirdan. I should take it, myself! :P

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:39 pm
by JellyFish
Everah wrote:I turn off JS a lot. Sometimes for testing, sometimes to quiet down sites that insist on sucking.

And since we develop for the user, we are pretty much always told what we are to support. Try going to McDonalds and ordering a Big Mac and have them tell you that all you can have today is a bowl of oatmeal. That wouldn't go over very well would it?
It's not quite the same thing. It's more like going to McDonald's in the United States and ordering a Big Mac and the telling you: "You need to give me US Dollars.". Not that I'd ever eat at McD's.Image

Weirden, I see what you're saying and to some degree I agree with you. But the way I look at it is, if someone has a WorldWideWeb browser or a browser I do not write applicaitons for, I will tell them that the peace of software you are using is not compatible with the application you are trying to open. It's like opening a .psd in Windows Paint. If they are using a modern browser, javascript compatible, but without javascript turned on, I suggest them to turn it on; because they can; they can always turn it off again. And when it comes to mobile phones: it depends on you sites preference. The iPhone is going in the right direction. Shouldn't mobile phones be built with the equivalent capabilities to those of desktop browsers? What if mobile phones didn't parse HTML? What if it were something else? Would we all have to degrade from HTML?

I think it all boils down to what your application is. If your application is meebo, do you think you are going to expect users to run it on a mobile phone?

You and I choose which platforms you and I support. I choose to encorage user to download a better photo-editor, convert their Euros to Dollars, and upgrade their browser WITH javascript enabled or at least the ability to do so.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:43 pm
by Benjamin
Pretty bad when the main navigation menu doesn't work without javascript.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:58 pm
by CoderGoblin
Last report I read (ok a year old) had 6% of people not using javascript. I know some companies don't allow it as a "security" feature.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:20 pm
by Benjamin
To expand on what Weirdan said regarding the NoScript extension.

There are a significant number of websites with "features" that are very annoying. Turning off javascript solves this problem. I only allow javascript on a per domain basis. All other sites have js turned off by default. This makes my Internet experience more enjoyable. I can't remember offhand what some of these features are, but I can't stand sites that load and then immediately take me to the bottom of the page (no clue, it's so stupid I haven't even looked into what causes this), I can't stand sites that have silly boxes that travel up and down the page with me, I can't stand sites that resize my browser window, and worst of all I hate sites that open a popup if I click anywhere on the page. Javascript = no thanks.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:58 pm
by JellyFish
So, are you guys saying that you browser without javascript turned on, and don't get shoot for it?

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:02 pm
by RobertGonzalez
I browse without JS all the time. If the site doesn't render without JS that means the site developer obviously does not care about the site users enough to offer them something regardless of browser or technology they have. A developer should develop to the least accessible browser standard, then enhance from there.